Easy call?

[shaundeeb]

Ok I def instacall, you are right this isn't the best board and action for TP/TK but they can easily have many hands you beat and have to win your 2 to 1 favorite vs his J10 etc.

If you aren't instacalling his shove and getting it in on this flop then check the flop. I don't mind a flop check in a usually wa/rarelybehind type of hand. You aren't afraid of that many turn cards and all but a 9 give you a few more outs to an even stronger hand etc.

he def can showup with AQ QJ K10 etc esp if you said standard players are bad here. Don't bet this flop with this hand if you plan on folding the flop or any point really unless board runs out J9 or 109 etc

[dxu05]

Not an easy call; in fact a very nasty call. Even the biggest, weirdest donks, don't open shove AQ, Q10, the garbage etc. They usually will call all ins with such junk, but never checkrepop.

The range here is J10(unlikely), sets, and KQ. You are a majority of the time doing yourself a favor by folding this against even moderately TAG players. Obviously, if the donk got there by pushing previously with absolute trash, then call. Since no real reads were attached, and I assume you would notice if he made all his chips by checkraising all in to bluff on the flop, this is a fold.

[registrar]

Shaun's right in that I shouldn't bet this board if I'm not calling a raise. Well, I think he's right which is why I called. Villain hadn't been at the table long. On Stars, I'd probably check this flop sometimes but I don't think villain is folding much he's flatted here so I'm happy betting.

To be honest, I assumed villain has JT, KQ, AA or AQ when he shoved. But, no, it's 44.

[dxu05]

You can bet the board if you're not calling a raise, there are hands that will try to shutdown call you or float; his eagerness to get it in so fast is the real red flag.

[registrar]

FWIW, I got this stack betting three streets OOP from UTG on an T high flop and calling a river checkraise to beat 99 with AA.

My other Crypto bustout of the evening was reraising pre with AA, getting flatted from SB, who put in 1/5 of his chips, flopping A56, checking behind and then calling a checkraise push on a Q turn. Guy had KTo and rivered the straight.

So this comes down to how often villain is a moron. There are a lot of them out there. Obviously, I can fold here if I think villain can play poker.

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I got this stack betting three streets OOP from UTG on an T high flop and calling a river checkraise to beat 99 with AA.

My other Crypto bustout of the evening was reraising pre with AA, getting flatted from SB, who put in 1/5 of his chips, flopping A56, checking behind and then calling a checkraise push on a Q turn. Guy had KTo and rivered the straight.

So this comes down to how often villain is a moron. There are a lot of them out there. Obviously, I can fold here if I think villain can play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your best case scenario is JT and your worst case scenario is everything else, then I think you can find a fold here. I know that's kinduv a gorilla logical analysis, but when you bet 2000 here, you're betting because you want action out of QJ /AQ/KJ, preferably a call with a plan for a sexy trap on the turn/river (which, incidentally, is why I feel a check here isn't all that bad). Once there is a push, it changes everything. Throw QJ and AQ out of the window, KJ can't be that [censored] excited (I think KJ minraises here, not pushes into 5000). So, folding is fine here if you have the stomach for it.

Barry

[sapsuckah]

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't instacalling his shove and getting it in on this flop then check the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shaun (and all)... can we discuss this concept a bit? I think this is an area I'd like to understand better because I think it's a big leak for me.

My problem lies in differentiating between the situations where this concept applies and where leading out may be appropriate even if you're planning to fold to a push. I could see making a $2k c-bet here with a hand like TT and folding to resistance.

And against bad players (which is what I'm used to since I generally play $8 - $12 tourneys), I'd be leading this flop for value and expect calls from mid pairs, AQ, Kx, JT, and often even A-high with no part of the board. So I could see it being profitable over time to lead out this flop even if I'm folding to a push.

So I'd appreciate it if you could offer some guidelines for when the concept of not-leading-when-you're-not-gonna-call-a-push applies vs when it's ok to bet/fold. Buyin considerations? Position? Stack sizes? What to look for in flop texture? etc...

Thanks!

Matt

[registrar]

Good question. For me, checking here might be good agaisnt good players to whom MP pf rr is hands that have hit this flop so hard that they really have to bail with AQ, JJ etc. So the value is in checking, most of the time. Also, when their SB flatting range is kind of defined as way ahead or way behind on this flop.

Against morons, I think you can expect a far wider range to call and then to payoff so betting is much better.

I actually think I could and should have folded here to the push. But, for me anyway, it's a question of moron frequency. He should never be value-betting a worse hand, nor should he ever have JT and thus be semi-bluffing. However, both are somewhat possible. And then there is just a certain amount of total nonsense. It's really hard to judge how much and how often. He actually hesitated for a moment, which for me, is a tell that he has a hand. I think people who insta CRAI here are more often FOS because they aren't stopping to consider what we've bet, what odds we're laying etc. They've got a plan and they're sticking to it.

[sapsuckah]

thanks Reg... So safe to say that the decision between checking and leading here basically comes down to your expectation of villain's ability (i.e., if he's good a check is better since it's more likely to be a wa/wb situation, but if he's bad then lead for value since you're more likely to get paid off by worse hands)?

Man, I hate basing decisions solely on expectation of an unknown opponents' ability. Regardless, I agree with what you're saying. And yeah, based on this, I do think that if you lead the flop here you have to be doing it with the expectation of moronity and therefore with the intention of calling the push.

Tough hand.

[benlj21]

I think this is a pretty easy call once you bet the flop. That said, I don't mind checking here. This is pretty much WA/WB but I think villain pushes plenty of worse hands. I think if he shows up with KQ here you're going to get him in the long run. That said, I guess he could have AA-QQ but if that's the case I think the whole hand is kind of a cooler and he probably would have just busted you anyway if he would have rr'ed preflop. I don't think you should overthink this one too much, I'd just bet/call the flop.