200/400 v Benyamine. River (bluff?) Shove

[Jman28]

Trying to apoligize in content-post form for the clutter.

Note the small sidepot. The fact that DB will see my hand if he folds has some effect IMO.

Still not sure how I feel about this one.

Seat 3: El mujeriego ($799)
Seat 5: David Benyamine ($87 260)
Seat 6: Hero ($67 083)
David Benyamine posts the small blind of $200
Hero posts the big blind of $400
The button is in seat #3

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
El mujeriego raises to $799, and is all in
David Benyamine raises to $2,000
Hero calls $1,600

Flop:[8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
David Benyamine bets $3,600
Hero calls $3,600

Turn:[ 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
David Benyamine bets $8,000
Hero calls $8,000

River:[ 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
David Benyamine bets $14,000
Hero raises to $53,483, and is all in

[Heir_Aparent]

Initially i thought "if u think he folds QQ-AA I like it". I mean his line is consistent with all of the above, but how often do u really think he is in the same line of thinking as u? (i.e has worse than a10 but wants to represent overpairs in order to take down the side pot) I mean it seems like u made this decision assuming that some % of the time he is already behind your A10 here, but your utilizing your push as sort of a protection/bluff against hands that are better but will fold. Correct me if im wrong. But, I dunno, i only think this makes sense if he really can have worse than you some significant % of the time. Otherwise depending on your guys' history (this seems like it would come into play a lot too) I think he might often pick up on what your doing and call down with JJ-AA.


edited to mention - to me it doesn't seem like DB will be betting worse here all that often, after the flop, in order to take it down.

[Apathy]

From what Ive seen of Benyamines play I hate this move as a bluff. I like a river call though.

[Nezzar]

I dont get this.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
From what Ive seen of Benyamines play I hate this move as a bluff. I like a river call though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer a call to a fold.

I don't think he has a flush or better here almost ever. I think he has a bluff like 20%, a worse or equal T like 40%, 888+ like 8%, and JJ+ the rest.

I don't think that I could have a missed draw the way the action went, adn although DB is cally, he can put people on hands based on their line.

I also thought that him knowing he would see my cards would make him fold a little more because of the curiousity factor.

I'm still not convinced I made the right play, just telling my side of the story.

[Nezzar]

"I also thought that him knowing he would see my cards would make him fold a little more because of the curiousity factor."

This def works on me, id fold JJ+. the notion of bluffing with a made hand (with SDV) is very reluctant to me.

[Hensa]

Do you have an estimate of the % he calls you with a weaker T ? ( may be 0% ? )

[Keiju]

If villain is "cally" why are we trying to push him off a very likely made hand? Why would you value shove when river bet is big from villain and he is representing better than pair of tens.

Not to mention "El mujeriego raises to $799, and is all in", if villain is bluffing on flop (very unlikely as showdown is already guranteed and pot is small so no bets go in unless its for value), he dosnt bluff again on the turn unless hes sure hero is on draw as hero will never float here. I think the chance that he is bluffing increases as the pot gets bigger but he got to that stage by betting when he most likely was not bluffing (on the flop).

After all of this hero shoves when flush hits; this wouldnt make sense unless hero has actually hit the flush so hero has deffinately turned this into a bluff. Hero is never really bluffing in this spot, so heroes kind of used villains strength as a pivot to show even more strength on his part. (Also using a sort of PLO technique as hero holds the card blocking nut flush, but villain never folds a flush here i guess)

Why did you decide to turn TPTK into a bluff anyway. If you called the flop and turn then it seems obvious your not calling to bluff on river. But then you bluff shove on river?!!? If your thinking of bluffing him off why not on the turn instead? when did you decide to discard TPTK and respresent the flush draw instead?

[HP]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that I could have a missed draw the way the action went

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious, do you call flop with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]/Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

If so, on the turn, you could call with the above two hands, T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], flopped OESD (maybe fold OESD like half the time on the turn). With that range you've got like ~25 diff river cards to value bet/bluff (any [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],Q,J,T,9,7,6,)

There's a lot of math I'm too lazy to do here (bluffing frequencies for each riv card) but given that Ben is willing to lead a 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] river is good. I'd guess calling with this range on the turn is +EV. If it isn't you could add in a smidgen of 8x turn call if that's not already what you are doing and surely it'd be +EV ?

[Eagles]

[ QUOTE ]
From what Ive seen of Benyamines play I hate this move as a bluff. I like a river call though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking the same thing. I probably like this more as really thin value than as a bluff.

edit: I don't even like it as a value shove that much. But I don't think benyamine will fold worse that often.

Maybe it's a two way [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]