Richest 2% hold half of world's assets

[peritonlogon]

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Do I really need to justify why it is acceptable? I don't think I do, becuase it is acceptable.

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Laws and approaches to law wouldnot have been acceptable in 1776, or in 1850 or in 1950 in the US, and have been acceptable for only a small percentage of recorded history in a small percentage of populations. So no, i don't think tht since it is currently accepted by a portion of the population of a portion of the world that it should be accepted without thought or reason.

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Agreed...but that doesn't mean that I have to justify how things are.
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All I need to do is be conviced that the moral arguments against it being acceptable are weak, which I think they are quite weak.

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So you are only against rape, murder, slavery and burning Jews in an oven when the majority of the country that they occur in reject them, but will accept them when the majority accept them?

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Have you no shame?

You think that because I think your one moral principle is neither universal nor absolute I think that the Holocaust was A.O.K. Where does one go to learn how to be that shameless? To purposely misunderstand someone and then, effectively call that person a Holocaust apologist? You really need to stop making analogies because you're just not good at it. You let your boundless desire to make your ridiculous distilation of morality outweigh common decency. Or were you being serious? Did you really mean that? If you did, all you've managed to show me that you think that if a certain absolute moral principle doesn't exist then the Holaocust, murder and rape are all excuseable...

Which tells me that I really shouldn't waste my time trying to dispell you of your problematic beliefs because you would no longer find these crimes wrong.... alright....I'll stop...for all of our sakes.

[NCAces]

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i'm not going to write a thesis, but everything done by hierarchical companies can be done by worker owned ones.

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Can you show any examples? I mean, aren't 99% of all companies what you call hierarchical companies?

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it would be better because i don't think most people like having bosses, basically.

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What proof do you have of this? I think that most people actually are better in a situation where they have guidance in what they are doing. I would argue that most people, in my experience, are not cut out to be their own boss. They don't have the intelligence, discipline, or skills to be so. To say otherwise is incredibly naive. You are projecting skills and desires on people because of your distaste of bosses, that I think most people simply don't have. A small number of malcontents, perhaps, but most not.

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they don't like part of what they produce going to a boss, they don't like the structure which i believe alienates the workers from others.

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Why does having part of what they produce going to a boss matter if the "boss" helps them earn more in the long run. Take the guys down at the Jiffy Lube. Good guys, hard workers, most likely without the intellect and skills to actually run the business. The "run the business" part means that you have to locate a place to have your store, keep inventory, procure equipment, hire and keep workers happy, advertise to get business, run promotions, etc. Do you think that just happens by default? Let the Jiffy Lube guys run the store for a while and see how quickly they will be wanting the boss back.

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i mean who here really would want to work under a boss instead of in a company where everyone is equal, where everyone has an equal say in how the company is run?

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You are in fantasy land, dude. I mean really. You are aware that we aren't all equal, yes? Some are smarter than others, some are stronger than others, some have more discipline than others, and some have skills that mean they are good at running the business part of the company while others are good at doing the manual labor. And, because we are different, some people's contribution is worth more and will want to be paid more. Your Utopian idea that we will all be equal is nonsense. Can you point to anywhere in the history of the world, outside one of your textbook hypotheticals, where this has happened.

NCAces

[peritonlogon]

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Your Utopian idea that we will all be equal is nonsense. Can you point to anywhere in the history of the world, outside one of your textbook hypotheticals, where this has happened.

NCAces

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Why don't you google "cooperatively owned companies" yourself.

[neverforgetlol]

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i'm not going to write a thesis, but everything done by hierarchical companies can be done by worker owned ones.

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Can you show any examples? I mean, aren't 99% of all companies what you call hierarchical companies?

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That's true, because capitalism is part of the state. Most companies operate this way because their owners realized they could take the workers' money without doing any work themselves. Also capitalists get plenty of favoritism and advantages from the state.

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it would be better because i don't think most people like having bosses, basically.

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[/ QUOTE ]What proof do you have of this? I think that most people actually are better in a situation where they have guidance in what they are doing. I would argue that most people, in my experience, are not cut out to be their own boss. They don't have the intelligence, discipline, or skills to be so. To say otherwise is incredibly naive. You are projecting skills and desires on people because of your distaste of bosses, that I think most people simply don't have. A small number of malcontents, perhaps, but most not.

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No, I'd say just about every worker would rather not be bossed around. You can have people manage things and so forth while it is still cooperative. Bosses put tons of pressure on people, they create an environment where you always have to be watching over your back. For example you may not reveal thing about yourself because it would create a conflict of interest (say that you are an atheist, anarchist, etc.)

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they don't like part of what they produce going to a boss, they don't like the structure which i believe alienates the workers from others.

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Why does having part of what they produce going to a boss matter if the "boss" helps them earn more in the long run. Take the guys down at the Jiffy Lube. Good guys, hard workers, most likely without the intellect and skills to actually run the business. The "run the business" part means that you have to locate a place to have your store, keep inventory, procure equipment, hire and keep workers happy, advertise to get business, run promotions, etc. Do you think that just happens by default? Let the Jiffy Lube guys run the store for a while and see how quickly they will be wanting the boss back.

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Why are they incapable of running the business?

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i mean who here really would want to work under a boss instead of in a company where everyone is equal, where everyone has an equal say in how the company is run?

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You are in fantasy land, dude. I mean really. You are aware that we aren't all equal, yes? Some are smarter than others, some are stronger than others, some have more discipline than others, and some have skills that mean they are good at running the business part of the company while others are good at doing the manual labor. And, because we are different, some people's contribution is worth more and will want to be paid more. Your Utopian idea that we will all be equal is nonsense. Can you point to anywhere in the history of the world, outside one of your textbook hypotheticals, where this has happened.

NCAces

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I didnt say we are all equal, but they aren't incapable of running a business. Examples, seriously? There are plenty of coooperative socities.

[NCAces]

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Your Utopian idea that we will all be equal is nonsense. Can you point to anywhere in the history of the world, outside one of your textbook hypotheticals, where this has happened.

NCAces

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Why don't you google "cooperatively owned companies" yourself.

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Thanks nit ... I never knew google existed. Why don't you counter my arguments? A handful of companies that exist and thrive in that manner doesn't prove a thing other than a few like minded people can get together and make the model work. Moreover, you google your term and read what you find ... you'll find the cooperatives have bosses, boards, and managememtn, and I'll bet if you look deep enough you will see everyone isn't treated equally. And, my points still stand when you look at the larger scale.

[neverforgetlol]

haha do you know what a cooperative is?

[NCAces]

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No, I'd say just about every worker would rather not be bossed around.

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We'll agree to disagree, but you are projecting here, and I get the feeling you've never been in the work force, or your experiences are very limited. (1) Most people thrive in an environement where they have mentors and people who are their "bosses." (2) if you define all bosses as being bad and evil people who yell at people and take advantage of them, then you clearly have a naive and limited view of the work world.

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Bosses put tons of pressure on people, they create an environment where you always have to be watching over your back. For example you may not reveal thing about yourself because it would create a conflict of interest (say that you are an atheist, anarchist, etc.)

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I wish you knew how juvenile this makes you sound, and how it reduces any gravitas that anyone would place in any of your arguments.

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Why are they incapable of running the business?

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Lack of intelligence and skills. You do realize that it isn't easy to start and run a business? Oh, no, you don't, because you never have. You are telling me the that the guys changing my oil at the Jiffy Lube want and can start and run their own Jiffy Lube (with me fully understanding that some can and will, but that many are just as happy doing what they do)?

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I didnt say we are all equal, but they aren't incapable of running a business. Examples, seriously? There are plenty of coooperative socities.

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Actaully, most aren't capable of running a business. What examples to you want me to give ... it plainly obvious that some people are cut out to be busienss owners and entrepreneurs - take risks, delay gratification, work long hours, have the smarts and discipline to pull it off - while others don't have those qualities. If you can't see this, then I again state that you are naive and inexperienced.

I want to make sure that 2 things are clear:

(1) I don't want my repetition that you are naive and inexperienced as coming of as an ad hominem attack. You could be a great guy, and maybe you are one of the people who could start their own business and run it as a cooperative. But for you to continually state that "everyone" can do that, or wants to do that shows that you haven't been in the real world of work where it is obvious to most that people can't and don't want to do that. I know of no other way to tell you otherwise, and can not attribute your theory to anything other than inexperience.

(2) I don't want to come across as disparaging to the "Jiffy Lube" guys. I am guessing there are a number of people with those types of jobs who do have the motivation, skills and discipline to work hard and start their own businesses. My point is that to simply say that they can all do it if they want to simply isn't true. And, this isn't a blue color, white color thing either. I live in a well-off white collar community where most people here don't own their own businesses and wouldn't want to - it takes a different set of skills they don't have. They are happy doing their work and reporting to their "bosses."

[NCAces]

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haha do you know what a cooperative is?

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peritonlogon requested that I google "cooperatively owned companies." I did. The first thing I read was:

"It was very evident that the board and management greatly appreciated the information provided by both Iowa State University and the Iowa Institute of Cooperative, both institutions were crucial in this decision process."

If that isn't what you are talking about fine ... answer my initial post and tell me what cooperatives are successful in the way you state in your posts.

NCAces

[neverforgetlol]

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We'll agree to disagree, but you are projecting here, and I get the feeling you've never been in the work force, or your experiences are very limited.

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Even in the interview, corporations want you to do everything for them and be perfect. It's a very authoritative system.

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(1) Most people thrive in an environement where they have mentors and people who are their "bosses." (2) if you define all bosses as being bad and evil people who yell at people and take advantage of them, then you clearly have a naive and limited view of the work world.

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Since you question me, what evidence do you have to back this up? I'd love to see survey data asking people's opinion of their bosses.

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I wish you knew how juvenile this makes you sound, and how it reduces any gravitas that anyone would place in any of your arguments.

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Whatever. There are many things about myself I would not mention in the workplace out of fear my boss would find out. But I would have no problem mentioning them to my coworkers.

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Lack of intelligence and skills. You do realize that it isn't easy to start and run a business? Oh, no, you don't, because you never have. You are telling me the that the guys changing my oil at the Jiffy Lube want and can start and run their own Jiffy Lube (with me fully understanding that some can and will, but that many are just as happy doing what they do)?

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You know there are many independent car repair places that are just a few guys that do the work and run the business? And how do one person businesses even work in your opinion? Clearly if these people work they can't know how to run the business behind it.

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Actaully, most aren't capable of running a business. What examples to you want me to give ... it plainly obvious that some people are cut out to be busienss owners and entrepreneurs - take risks, delay gratification, work long hours, have the smarts and discipline to pull it off - while others don't have those qualities. If you can't see this, then I again state that you are naive and inexperienced.

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But it's necessary for everyone to start a business. You could work for yourself, or join a cooperative already running.

[neverforgetlol]

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haha do you know what a cooperative is?

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peritonlogon requested that I google "cooperatively owned companies." I did. The first thing I read was:

"It was very evident that the board and management greatly appreciated the information provided by both Iowa State University and the Iowa Institute of Cooperative, both institutions were crucial in this decision process."

If that isn't what you are talking about fine ... answer my initial post and tell me what cooperatives are successful in the way you state in your posts.

NCAces

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Cooperatives are firms that produce gooods where people don't sell their labor power.