Is This Cheating?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think X-ray vision would be cheating. You would simply have a superior skill that would enable you to play better. You've done nothing unnatural or fraudulent to violate the rules (such as marking the cards, or straining to see your opponents' cards). If you had ESP, and used it to your advantage, would that be cheating?

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Ignoring effort required for set-up and lucky genetics please explain to me all the the differences between the following:

Being born with Xray vision and using it to see all the cards.

Marking the cards for your benefit.

Have an operation on your eyes so they gain Xray vision.

Wearing xray vision glasses.

Noticing someone else is marking the cards, doing nothing about it, and taking advantage of the information.

You're 8 feet tall and your height lets you look over nearby players to see their hand.

You're 6 feet tall and notice the 8 foot player doing this. So you put some sort of "ass-booster" into your pants so you can do it as well.

You shave half an inch off the front 2 legs of the chairs so people lean forward allowing you to glance at their hands more often.

You install invisible hole card cams into the table.

[David Sklansky]

Head up is maybe different.

[gimmetheloot]

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Head up is maybe different.

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No.

[Deorum]

The glasses scenario is clearly cheating. Down cards are not to be exposed to anyone but the person dealt those cards. That is why they are dealt face down. If these cards are being exposed without the player's knowledge, he should be informed so that the game can resume in the state it was meant to be played. He should not bear an extra disadvantage of having his down cards exposed just because he is an idiot. Preventing your cards from being exposed is not supposed to be one of the skills involved in playing the game.

The artery scenario is clearly not cheating. Nowhere within the rules of the game is it implied that the mannerisms of your opponents are to be masked and hidden, whether or not your opponent willfully exhibits those mannerisms. Preventing people from accurately discerning what you are thinking through the mannerisms you exhibit is supposed to be one of the skills involved in playing the game.

[Xhad]

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This is what i first thought. It´s just a bad play. Kind of like calling a pf raise with J3. But then I thought, "what if a good friend of mine was doing it in my home game?" I would definitely tell him asap about the reflection. However, I think I would only tell him about the J3 if he asked me. I might be an unusual case though because no one has ever lost more than thirty dollars in one of my home games. playing j3 on a regular basis is part of the fun. if the stakes were high enough to really hurt him, i wouldn´t play against my friend who played j3.

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The difference here is that your opponent intentionally played J3. While the person doing things that expose his cards isn't doing it on purpose (and if he is then I'm sure you wouldn't say anything as he already knows).

[Xhad]

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Head up is maybe different.

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No.

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I've actually had the argument presented to me that taking advantage of a player accidentally exposing his hole cards unbenknownst to the table is cheating because it gives you an unfair edge over the rest of the table (not just because you know his hand but because you know those cards are dead). This in response to the fact that I will at most warn someone one time that I can see their cards before taking advantage of it in future hands.

[gull]

Is it cheating to grab someone's cards and look at them while they are turned around ordering a drink?

Yes. Viewing someone's cards is cheating.

[schroedy]

I see cards from the other players' hands every single time I play. And many times over, and in many ways. They pull them up to look at them. They pitch them toward the muck 18 to 24 inches off the felt. They roll them toward the muck. The dealers have their moves, perfected in hours of boredom, that show the cards. If I couldn't see cards I'd be lost.

Tells are not even close to being cheating.

I think it's a very fine line to start defining ANYTHING in poker as cheating. Generally, I would say that if you don't like the way the other players are playing, don't sit down (or if you are sitting down, get up). But don't layer any morality on it. Those players are trying to take your money, same as you are trying to take theirs.

[schroedy]

See my response on poker above. Same in bridge for me. See em all the time.

Although I don't need to.

[schroedy]

[ QUOTE ]
The artery scenario is clearly not cheating. Nowhere within the rules of the game is it implied that the mannerisms of your opponents are to be masked and hidden, whether or not your opponent willfully exhibits those mannerisms. Preventing people from accurately discerning what you are thinking through the mannerisms you exhibit is supposed to be one of the skills involved in playing the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Annie Duke and Howard Lederer have made the point that sunglasses (masks, hoods, hats, etc.) should be banned at the table.