The ol' hidden high denomination chip trick

[psandman]

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Here's a story from the Wynn about 10 days ago.

Sitting at the 1-3 NL game, a strong player 2 to my left has about 3K in front of him. A seemingly loose ad crazy player immediately to my left sat down earlier with about 300, and was down to about $45 or so. I saw him reach into his pocket and pull out a 500 chip and 2 100 chips, and put them in play between hands. My first instinct was that I was the only one who noticed this, and that he was possibly making a move on the guy to his right. Sure enough, a couple of hands later, this came up:

Multiway unraised pot, flop 448 rainbow. Both of these players are in the hand, 3 chip bet on the flop ($9) and a call. Turn comes blankish, and the big stack bets about 30 this time, and a call. The angle-shooter has about 6 $3 chips left, and a 500 and 2 100s hidden at the bottom of that stack. The river comes a third 4, and the bigstack says "uh, I'll just put you all in..." and the angle-shooter immediately calls and throws in 700 and change. Right away, the table is in shock, as they had no idea he was so deep, and the bigstack is a bit surprised as well, and he says "well, that's OK, I put you all in anyway..." and rolls over the case 4 for quads.

I suspect the angle-shooter had 88 for the flopped boat, but who knows.

We all agreed it served him right for hiding the big chips.

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I don't think you can fairly describe it as hiding large denomination chips when there are three of them in a 9 chip stack. 1/3 of the stack wasn't pink, thats the same as hiding a chip under a stack.

[bav]

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Maybe you should even now take it up with the management of the room and think about changing rooms if they don't do anything about it.


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This particular ruling by the floor is in a gray area. We have plenty of folks here who are insisting the angle shooter did nothing wrong, or that maybe the poor victim was the actual angle shooter. I'm sure the floor was influenced by the way the dealer told the story, too...the dealer was absolutely on the side of the angle shooter and had spent considerable effort trying to talk the victim into coughing up prior to calling the floor. So his telling of the story was slightly biased ("Joe said all-in and put out two stacks like this, and this guy said 'call' and now says he didn't know there was a black there"). But the victim got to put his 2cents in before the floor ruled, stating very clearly that the black was hidden at the bottom of the stack of blues. Soooo... I can't fault the floor all that much. It's tough if you weren't there watching.

[Basilvdk]

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No it is clear that those chips are separate. When chips are seperated like that it is clear they need to be looked at closely. In another post I tired to describe the best way to stack your chips, you have done it much better then did.

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Okay, thanks to you and Bav. I always thought this was okay, but I've only been playing live about 3 months and didn't want to be accidently cheating without even realizing it. As for the guy with the 20's, I hate people who try to change the rules after they see the results. If they guy objected to the 20's, he should have objected when the bet was made, not when the results were shown. He got beat, and should take it like a man. If he had won, would he have been objecting? It's quite possible the guy didn't know that 20's don't play. Happens at Foxwoods all the time, and often dealers don't say anything.

[chesspain]

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Happens at Foxwoods all the time, and often dealers don't say anything.

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Maybe you just can't understand the languages they're speaking.

[AngusThermopyle]

"Normal" way to keep a single oversized chip is at the bottom/top of your next-highest denomination chip. In this case, the red $5 chips. Keeping it with your smallest denomination chips, where you might accidently put it in the pot, is rather uncommon, especially if the colors of the chips are 'close'.
Dude shot an angle.
Dealer and Floor seemed to let things other than "the interest of fairness" influence their actions.

[Kovner]

I only skimmed the 2nd half of this thread, but I have something to add.

First, though:
I strongly agree that high demonination chips should be visible, but I don't know how to handle the situation where someone makes a call or push misreading the size of his opponent's stack. Should someone who doesn't know the rules be punished when they innocently have a high-demonination chip somewhere besides the top of a stack? Then again, shouldn't everything be done against the favor of angle shooters?

As players, though, debate of what rules exist and why is less important than understanding what we should do individually. When I'm at the table, I make every effort to make the size of my stack as clear as possible. Sometimes, I even become worried that one of my stacks (say my green stack) is only visible to half the table and try to rearange to make it clear.

Here's my main contribution to this thread:
What should a player do when he sees another player hiding (deliberately or not) a high-demonination chip?
MM and DS have continually explained the dangers of coming off as a rules-nit at the table: it decreases the friendliness of the game, and makes the game seem less honest (a problem if you desire to keep that specific game running long term). So what should you do?
I think a player, in this situation, should somehow tell the dealer, in the vaguest possible terms, to make sure everyone has their high-demonination chips visible. Dealers should be doing this anyway, but they have a lot to keep track of as it is. "Hey, can you make sure everyone has their high demonination chips visible" should do the trick and alert to the dealer someone is hiding something. If the dealer can't find the person or looks clueless, you may be able to whisper (if you're in the 1 or 10 seat) which seat is the culprit, or while the guy isn't looking just nod towards him or give a strong stare. If that doesn't work, get up as if you are just going to the restroom or stretching your legs and let the floorperson know.

[Kovner]

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"Normal" way to keep a single oversized chip is at the bottom/top of your next-highest denomination chip. In this case, the red $5 chips. Keeping it with your smallest denomination chips, where you might accidently put it in the pot, is rather uncommon, especially if the colors of the chips are 'close'.
Dude shot an angle.
Dealer and Floor seemed to let things other than "the interest of fairness" influence their actions.

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Good point.
The colors of chips are also designed so that chips close in value contrast. A Black chip near a green or red chip is obvious, but may not stick out in a stack of blue.

[AngusThermopyle]

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What should a player do when he sees another player hiding (deliberately or not) a high-demonination chip?



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"Hey, you have a $100 chip in your $1s. Could you please keep it separate so there won't be any confusion? Thanks."

[crackhead]

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...the bigstack is a bit surprised as well, and he says "well, that's OK, I put you all in anyway..." and rolls over the case 4 for quads....

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AWESOME!!

[AKQJ10]

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What should a player do when he sees another player hiding (deliberately or not) a high-demonination chip?

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Good question. You make some good suggestions:

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... I think a player, in this situation, should somehow tell the dealer, in the vaguest possible terms, to make sure everyone has their high-demonination chips visible. Dealers should be doing this anyway, but they have a lot to keep track of as it is. "Hey, can you make sure everyone has their high demonination chips visible" should do the trick and alert to the dealer someone is hiding something.

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That's probably a good plan. Or just, "Can you make sure all the stacks are visible?", casually as possible.

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If the dealer can't find the person or looks clueless, you may be able to whisper (if you're in the 1 or 10 seat) which seat is the culprit, or while the guy isn't looking just nod towards him or give a strong stare.

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Well, that's less promising unless you're good at ventriloquism or something.

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If that doesn't work, get up as if you are just going to the restroom or stretching your legs and let the floorperson know.

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That's probably the best solution of all. Discreetly alerting the floor is always a good way to handle this sort of thing. Then the floor can discreetly alert the dealer, or just come over and ask everyone to make their stacks visible.

Alas, in a tournament (as the OP posited), it costs the player to get up and "stretch his legs". The chip colors may also be more similar in some tournaments, not sure.