Do you think bots are cheating?

[runway model]

Sucker,

Remember the arbiter in this matter is the site in question and its published terms and conditions *as interpreted by that site*. They don't want you to this. They will interpret your intentions as being against their conditions. And therefore you will be cheating.

Sounds a bit unfair on hotshot programmers, especially if you can do text alerts for decisions with split screen porn (i like the features, consider them as essential)

This actually isn't a theoretical question, it's just a practical one. Poker Stove and 2 Dimes are ok. The sites say they are ok because other players do not perceive that players who use them are effectively bot opponents. Your scheme creates the perception of a bot opponent. And it's that which terrifies sites, and which dicates their terms. And if you find a fancy way around the current version of their terms, they will simply re-write them.

try this *cheating* test -- Email Party or Stars and explain your hypothetical intentions. Then ask them if you would be cheating. I think we both know the answer...

[jba]

sucker, it's cheating because either they are already better than us or else they soon will be.

[Joe Tall]

If it breaks the rules of an online poker site, Dave, it's cheating.

[Joe Tall]

Dave, is this a probe before you try to win the PokerBot World Championship, starting Sept 23rd?

You got a few days, gogogogogoggo!

[Victor]

a bot could be just a sick software program like this http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post12132967

is it cheating if i sat down with my computer genius friends and wrote a program that was able to calculate my equity vs villains range (plucked from pt) given the board and my hand using pstove.

so now i let this bot loose at 1-2 and even 3-6 playing completely equity based. realize it only needs to win at like -.1bb/hr to make me money.

and lets go a bit farther. i play 30/60 with the program giving me street by street equities which i use to make decisions. the program is just a reference like pt or pahud. it just displays some stats that no one else sees. even better, it displays an visual image that shows the % of time an opponent has cred with a certain hand (say a gutshot) on a certain board.

whats his flop cr frequency with:
a) top pair
b) trips+
c) fd
d) gutshot
e) air
f) ace on monotone board

etc.

the only thing holding me back is laziness. i know the brains. they can code. they have the equipment.

theres no doubt ppl who play better than i can imagine know ppl who code better than my friends (tho my friends are damn good, some running companies now) have programs that play better than any on this forum.

cue crazymike.

[emerson]

I don't think that is cheating because you are making the decision. You are using tools to help you decide, but you make the decision. This means that you can, and often will, veto what the program tells you to do for various reason. This is not the same as putting something on auto-pilot 24 hours a day.

[kiddo]

I think this discussion would be helped if we divided the word "cheating" into a few sub-categories.

Legal

Is it allowed to use bots?
Answer: No, it isnt.

Ethics

Is it ok to use them?
Answer: Some think its ok, some dont.

I dont think the ethical question is that important.

The bots are there and they will just become better and better. My guess is that if the pokersites allow them internetpoker will die. So I think the sites will have to do what they can to prevent them from being all over their site. So bots will not be allowed, whatever we think about them.

[Guy McSucker]

There is a bit of a fine line/slippery slope here.

Let's assume that we do not think it is cheating to use pokertracker (let's say just using a db of hands you've played, to avoid datamining issues.)

How much processing are you allowed to do on the data before it is cheating?

1) Just use the stats pokertracker readily provides?
2) Use the stats PAHUD (and similar) computes from your PT stats?
3) Use arbitrary stats of your own creation, produced by running your own custom made software on the PT database?
4) Use software that takes the stats from (3) and estimates the EV of any action you might make?
5) Use software that just tells you the most +EV action computed in (4)?
6) Use software that just goes ahead and takes the most +EV action for you?

As far as I can tell, the only thing that distinguishes (5) from (6) is that you need a human to sit there and press the button in (5). Its only weaknesses are hungry and sleepy.

(5) and (4) seem equivalent to me. If anything (4) is the debugging mode for (5).

(4) is just (3) with more programming (but see below).

(3) is just (2) with more programming.

(2) is only distinguished from (1) by who did the programming, and how can a stat be cheating if PAHUD does it but not if PokerTracker does it?

We agreed that (1) is okay. Therefore (6) is okay; or at least (5) is. Bot away, dudes!

Okay, I glossed over something. If there's a big step anywhere, IMO it's from (3) to (4), i.e. going from displaying stats on players to analysing lines etc. as mentioned in the post above. Certainly this is a place where fresh thinking is needed, i.e. you have to group hands and boards and so on, estimate hand ranges, estimate outcomes for given lines etc. which you have not had to do before.

Perhaps it is this that makes something a "bot" rather than an "analysis tool". But I don't know how you would define it, because ultimately both (1) and (5) are just processing a lot of collected data in ways defined by the software you've got.

[milesdyson]

5 and 4 are very similar... you can only bet call raise or fold, so it's 4 EV numbers to decide from. i keep responding to this thread only to delete them before posting. i really think the key difference is between 5 and 6. you should not be able to apply your thinking to more tables for more time than you, yourself, would be able to "captain" with a mouse. this is where botting creates the unfair advantage. not to mention the fact that poker sites can't possibly allow bots because eventually most players will be bots, and then everyone will quit because most players will be bots.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a bit of a fine line/slippery slope here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um no, It's really clear as day. Using a bot is against the rules of a poker site. It is cheating.