Weird situation at Caesars

steamboatin · #1 11-27-2007, 11:35 AM

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He has to play the chips that were on the table when the hand started.

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Yes, which is why the dealer is unacceptably negligent here.

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Little harsh on the dealer aren't we?

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Maybe the tone and word selection was harsh, but that doesn't make it less true. It is entirely possible that if the other player had raised, the dealer would have required the villain to put his chips back on the table if he wanted to call.

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Yes, but it that such a big deal? If he gets raised, he either puts his chips back in play or folds. I don't see any reason for the dealer to panic because the chips came off the table. Obviously it would be better if the chips stayed on the table but negligent is way too harsh a term.

dizzle98 · #2 11-27-2007, 11:40 AM

How many chips does he then put back into play though? All the chips in his pocket, including any that were already there? As many chips as he feels like taking back out? If he's got the nuts and the guy pushes does he get to take out that extra $200 he has in there to win more money? If the guy raises and he's got a mediocre hand does he only pull out half of what he took off?

The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.

RR · #3 11-27-2007, 12:56 PM

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The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.

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What would you like for the dealer to do? He saw it happen as it was happening. I am certain if he knew it was about to happen he would have told the guy not to do it.

dizzle98 · #4 11-27-2007, 01:28 PM

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The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.

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What would you like for the dealer to do? He saw it happen as it was happening. I am certain if he knew it was about to happen he would have told the guy not to do it.

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I'd like the dealer to at least say something. It's clearly not the dealer's fault that it happened, but to see something that's clearly not allowed and just sit there like it's nothing? At least a "sir, you need to put those chips back on the table until the hand is over".

Are you of the opinion that dealers should let people rathole and just not say anything? Again, i don't think the dealer is negligent in letting it happen, i think they're negiligent in having seen it happen and just sitting there silently.

RR · #5 11-27-2007, 01:33 PM

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The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.

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What would you like for the dealer to do? He saw it happen as it was happening. I am certain if he knew it was about to happen he would have told the guy not to do it.

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I'd like the dealer to at least say something. It's clearly not the dealer's fault that it happened, but to see something that's clearly not allowed and just sit there like it's nothing? At least a "sir, you need to put those chips back on the table until the hand is over".

Are you of the opinion that dealers should let people rathole and just not say anything? Again, i don't think the dealer is negligent in letting it happen, i think they're negiligent in having seen it happen and just sitting there silently.

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It depends on the room. if this is a room (or game) where the players are allowed to tell the dealer to STFU and then ignore him the dealer speaking up doesn't really do much.

This always comes as a surprise to people that haven't been around these games much, but there are many casinos where the players are allowed to tell the dealer to STFU or throw things at him for talking. If you are playing in one of these places you should expect the dealer to not talk.

dizzle98 · #6 11-27-2007, 01:55 PM

If the dealer is going to be "ignored" or "yelled at" after pointing out that someone is ratholing chips then that dealer should be calling the floor over. For all we know based on the original post the other player in the hand may/may not know that this player just stuffed who knows how many chips into their pocket. Or they may be a new player who doesn't know you can't do this (this is 1/2 after all).

Whether the dealer gets yelled at or not I still expect them to uphold some basic rules. Or at the very least to call the floor over. At what point would you like the dealer to say something? If they see a player hiding a card to use later should they let it slide because no other player said anything? Should they allow players to slip an extra couple hundred into their stack after they look down and see aces?

Maybe I've just been lucky. I've played in quite a few B&M's and have never seen an instance where a dealer clearly saw someone cheat and just let it go because they didn't feel like saying anything.

Just out of curiosity are you a dealer RR? You have the sound of having dealt in some of these rooms where dealers are having things thrown at them for daring to speak.

(Also I would have less problem with this if it were a higher stakes games where dealers do oftentimes take more of a backseat role of simply dealing out cards and pushing pots. I would put more of the responsibility on the other player in the hand, though I'd still expect the dealer to point out that it happened at least, but this is 1/2...for all anyone knows neither one of the players in the hand even realize anyone has done anything wrong)

RR · #7 11-27-2007, 01:59 PM

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If the dealer is going to be "ignored" or "yelled at" after pointing out that someone is ratholing chips then that dealer should be calling the floor over. For all we know based on the original post the other player in the hand may/may not know that this player just stuffed who knows how many chips into their pocket. Or they may be a new player who doesn't know you can't do this (this is 1/2 after all).

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You are missing the point. In rooms where this is allowed the floor will confirm that the dealer should STFU so the players don't have to tell him. This thing is going away in all but the biggest games.

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Whether the dealer gets yelled at or not I still expect them to uphold some basic rules

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In these rooms the most basic rule is the dealer has nothing to say.

edit to add: I was speaking in very general terms. I doubt the game discussed in the OP is one where the players are able to throw things at the dealer without penalty.

steamboatin · #8 11-27-2007, 06:46 PM

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The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.

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What would you like for the dealer to do? He saw it happen as it was happening. I am certain if he knew it was about to happen he would have told the guy not to do it.

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All dealers are supposed to be endowed with godlike powers that allow them to make everyone else behave perfectly but not interfere with YOUR play.

schnukums · #9 11-27-2007, 04:15 PM

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How many chips does he then put back into play though? All the chips in his pocket, including any that were already there? As many chips as he feels like taking back out? If he's got the nuts and the guy pushes does he get to take out that extra $200 he has in there to win more money? If the guy raises and he's got a mediocre hand does he only pull out half of what he took off?

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If hes putting the money in his pocket and not using a rack hes probably not holding that much. I'm sure the players at the table could put him within $20 of what he took off. If not go to the cameras. (casinos do have a couple of those around)

dizzle98 · #10 11-27-2007, 04:41 PM

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How many chips does he then put back into play though? All the chips in his pocket, including any that were already there? As many chips as he feels like taking back out? If he's got the nuts and the guy pushes does he get to take out that extra $200 he has in there to win more money? If the guy raises and he's got a mediocre hand does he only pull out half of what he took off?

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If hes putting the money in his pocket and not using a rack hes probably not holding that much. I'm sure the players at the table could put him within $20 of what he took off. If not go to the cameras. (casinos do have a couple of those around)

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That's true if he's using all $1 or $5 chips. I've seen plenty of 1/2 games using $25 and $100 chips in play which makes it a lot harder. And yes you can go to cameras, have you been on a table where they have to go to cameras for something? You might as well go home cuz the game is gonna be stopped for a LONG time. And the time to determine how much money he has in play is BEFORE the other player potentially raises, not after he's pushed then play "guess the amount" on how much the other player took off the table. The problem isn't so much this one time, the problem is that by letting this happen the dealer is setting a precedent that it's ok, which it's not. I have less problem with him doing it than I do with the fact that the dealer just ignores it. It just shows that the dealer either doesn't know or doesn't care about enforcing some basic rules.