LETS GET SOME DISCUSSION... JJ and my pre and post flop play

[minSim]

I expect that:
AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQs
are definately in villains range, and you should call against it.

Because you played, you should do an estimation how likely the following are:

33, 66, 99, 45, 78, air.

Seeing that you only have to win like 30% of the time to be profitable, this probably isn't even a close call.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
cor, the guy has a 25% pfr and 6% pfrr, and is quite aggro when he is in a hand over a limited sample. he is perfectly rangeable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geroge Bush is rangeble. I just dont see how this is going to help this hand.

"HEY! His range is not ATC, its only 25% ATC! We are now only 10 to 1 favorites instead of 50 to 1! I think we should fold! YE!"

[starkwired]

I'd raise more preflop and flat the flop, but probably fold to the reraise.

[mackthefork]

If you're a 60/40 dog you'll be lucky, but i guess thats enough to call, what happened anyway, he folded right?

Mack

[Waingro]

I think it is close between calling and folding pf. Obv we want to see a flop with something as good as JJ with position on sb, even if we think his range is fairly tight. However, utg is still in the hand, and he is obviously going to 4bet some of the time. And because sb is less than solid and there is some money in the pot and to shut you out, he might want to gamble with QQ and AK as well or even less. QQ+ and AK is at least 25% of his range here so that means you are not going to see a flop a bit too often. I don´t really mind a fold pf.

Just call the flop unless this is what you were aiming for. How hard can it be, don´t raise this flop with something as good as JJ giving you great odds to call a push from a maniac if you don´t plan on calling.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]

Just call the flop unless this is what you were aiming for. How hard can it be, don´t raise this flop with something as good as JJ giving you great odds to call a push from a maniac if you don´t plan on calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

[munkey]

Sheesh kaz I come back and you post a v.hard hand.

First I think jacks are one of the hardest hands to play
esp OOP and in a multiway 3bet pot.

UTG has TT+, AQs+ and some more hands he's likely been 3betting the fish with but I'll use std 3bet range because it's easier and I thin ku said he hasn't been 3betting much.

SB: preflop alot of cards but the sahara dry flop helps narrow his range

I play preflop the same, for the reasons u mentioned pretty much.

On the flop I like your raise size but if UTG shoves I think we have to fold even though it means our raise wasn't best but as played given pot size HU with the tool we have to call the shove.

I say A9, 9x,a6, 33,66,99 ,45,78 all PPs AA-22 except JJ, AJ KQ AQ and 10% total bluff.

In these situations with a fairly wide range I often shove for value but don't know whether this is right, as I find it hard to put them on a range in teh 1st place and amnot sure of our equity then.

I think in these situations you've just got to go with your read and shove or fold.

Alternately in my WT canoe [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I like calling the flop bet and on a blank non-broadway[editn jack [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] turn with more info shoving/folding turn -this gives us more info and vs bluffs gets him to bluff again and gives us way more equity vs UI hands/draws he may have. Postion and handreading we get to use this way.


AFAIK we don't have to raise the flop for protection if we're folding on higher card turn.

Also with UTG behind us if he 3bet a big hand he can make his move[I think he has AK BTW here as played] we can get away with only 6 put in on the flop.

[AZplaya]

kaz if your gonna cold call almost %10 of your stack pre against this type of player, you gotta be willing to felt it on this type of flop. Sometimes he flips over AA - QQ and you gotta reload, but just as often I think you see alot of whiffed overs or smaller pairs that your ahead of.

[kaz2107]

hmmmm just got back from class and read tha responses. some good thought (from everyone other then corsahk which i 100% disagree that i am WAY ahead) which is what i was hoping for. im on life tilt right now as the direct tv guy just came out to my new house and said i cant get HD unless i chop down some trees in the front yard. so i called around about that and it looks like it is gonna cost like 1k to do that. sigh.

so imma think over a few of the responses, play a game or two of madden 08 since i can infact play that in HD even tho i have trees [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img], and then get back to u all.

[bozzer]

kaz. I think the advice from munkey, luckyjimm and AZplaya in this thread is pretty sharp. corsakh has a point in that there is a lot of uncertainty about the correct answer for this particular player.

the best advice i can give is to not chop down the trees!