Another standard hand I think...

[Niediam]

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I probably misapply the raise-the-turn-for-free-showdown play all the time, but I think that's what I do here; is that bad? In my usual live 2/4 game most of the time that will get me the free showdown (rarely will I get 3bet/led-into, although sometimes I will get called/led-into).

GcluelessnoobG

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The free showdown play should be done with hands that you can fold with if you are three bet. We can't fold here as there are quite a few cards which may give us a winner on the river.

[Mitke]

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However, my point was that the decision to see the showdown UI should be made on the turn getting 6.5:1 - is my thinking wrong here or should I just re-evaluate on the river separately?

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Showing down UI is just one way you can win this hand. On the turn, you have outs to flushes and straights as well.

So when considering a turn call, you want to take into account the entire range of possibilities... of which, call / call is just one contributing term.

- clip -

Hope that clears up a few things.

-Eric

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Thanks, it did and was pretty much where I think I ended up after going in circles a bit first.

At least your posts might help others think about this more clearly - my ramblings probably confused everybody, me included.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[AMadison]

Is raising this flop really the best choice? The only logical reason for raising this flop is to pump it up. Nobody is folding to a flop raise here. The worst odds you're laying is the 15-2 to the small blind (and even a smart small blind player would see it as 18-1 assuming the BB doesn't 3bet). So all it serves to do is put 5 more small bets into a pot that you are very vulnerable to lose.

Whats more is consider a flop raise here and then a blank on the turn (as opposed to the 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]). Then because its a blank we can assume no one got help and thus we get checked to. When we bet here we lay 11-1 odds to 4 players giving the proper odds to draw to even the worst of draws.

No consider a flop call. Assuming the SB still calls (as we can easily assume since he called 2 bets) there would be 7.5 BB in the pot. Now assume a blank again as done before. When it gets checked to us and we bet here we are only laying 8.5 -1 odds making it a mistake for people to draw to certain long shot draws. And since we make money when they make mistakes, we need to give them every opportunity to make such mistakes. By raising the flop we prevent them from making a mistake even if they have no knowledge of pot odds.

[Mitke]

We are raising the flop because not utilizing the equity edge we probably have would forgo too much value (+ we have a redraw w/BDFD). We still benefit from their calls whether they make mistakes or not. It's true we don't probably win this too often with that much company on a board that drawy.

I still think that raising the flop results in us making more profit than waiting to turn to raise on the premise of being able to protect you hand better (which is true). I don't have the time to do the math, though.

[One Outer]

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We are raising the flop because not utilizing the equity edge we probably have would forgo too much value (+ we have a redraw w/BDFD). We still benefit from their calls whether they make mistakes or not. It's true we don't probably win this too often with that much company on a board that drawy.

I still think that raising the flop results in us making more profit than waiting to turn to raise on the premise of being able to protect you hand better (which is true). I don't have the time to do the math, though.

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This is almost certainly true. Just because everyone has odds to call doesn't mean a turn raise would be more +EV. There are so many combos that are going to peel that flop for two bets it would be silly not to take the value.

[elindauer]

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I think you should just call and call 2/3 rivers and raise the good ones.

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Yuck! There isn't a card in the deck that makes your hand worth a raise.

lol. You got me there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Or maybe that's what you mean... raise the good ones, of which, there are none, so don't ever raise the river. If so, I agree. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-Eric

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Even the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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[Hair_of_the_Dog]

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I fold the river approximately never.

Other people here love making big river folds but I'm not a fan of it at all.

Rest of the hand is standard.

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Me too, not for 1 bet in a big pot. The only time I fold the river for 1 bet is when there more than 2 of us and I'm not last to act (and I missed my draw).