Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games Study Group - Day One

[mattnxtc]

Lesson One: Opening a Pot for a Raise (Pages 10-33)

This is a pretty basic introduction into preflop play. This should be somewhat intuitive from previous books (SSHE) that the farther from the button we are the tighter we should play.
Also a brief discussion takes place about suited connectors and when to play them.

The hand chart on page 12 is interesting and I plan to spend more time reading over it. It looks like from a simple read that I need to adjust my range. I seem to be raising QJo a bit more than he recommends though I may be a bit tighter with the lower suited connectors.

We are introduced to three players: high, mid, grd. The rest of this chapter is a look at their play from a 6 handed standpoint. I would love to see some analysis of these players hands to point out anything particularly interesting. I need to tighten myself up to meet somewhat similar ranges.

Right off the top, my W$atSD is way to low which leads me to think I am calling down to light particularly with ace high.

Feel free to add more in.

[mattnxtc]

I figured I would bump this to see if there is any interest.

[Sheakspeer]

I disagree to a certain extent that this is a "basic" introduction to pf play. You might have heard several posters here state that you must adjust your pf strategy according to your opponent and that this is one of the main thesis' in this book. I'm intrigued by this idea.

For example, let's say that you have a really bad player in the BB who calls down like any pair, plays too many hands 55 vpip, and will try bluffy stuff when it would never seem to work. He's to your immediate right and is the reason you are at the table. The rest of the table seems to be filled with solid tag's, not too loose, and not likely to re-steal an UTG raise. You are UTG. Now let's say you have QJ os (which is a hand you mention you are a bit too loose with). Wouldn't you be more inclined to raise in this situation? Or would we rather wait for a weaker type of hand, read say T 8 os, when everything is folded to us on the button and multi-tabling joeschmo tag 25/16 blaw cheow meow, is in the BB and his sister is in the sb (who learned poker from joe). Which situation is more profitable?

Granted, I don't think this situation will matter too much because it is so close, but I think you see my point.

[Sheakspeer]

Also, how we are defining "post-flop expectation?" That if we feel the 55 vpip spews post-flop we should add hands to our range because we get more value? If this is so, it is also true that the more marginal hands we add will not steal the blind as often because the spew monkey is sitting in the BB. Post-flop expectation seems to be a keyword in the book. I'd like to hear different people define this word and what it means to them.

[Sheakspeer]

Another example - let's say we're 3 seats off the button and spew monkey is in the BB again. Would we rather play JQ os or 55 or does this not matter? Stox, according to his guidelines suggests that 55 goes in for a raise, while JQ os goes in the muck. Is this true in the situation we're in? BB is a spew monkey and will likely c/r a flop just because he feels like it (or so it seems). Do we really want to hold 55 in this situation? I would think most of the value lost for JQ comes in the times we are 3 bet by one of the TAG's to our left when they hold AJs or say AQ. But if we're not getting 3 bet frequently from MP, would we rather hold JQ vs. spew monkey? I'm not really sure and probably really close again, but I'm just working through ideas.

Stox states that in a loose game holding “a pair of sevens . . . in very loose games . . . so the decreased likelihood of stealing the blinds is balanced by post-flop expectation.” However, the situation above is not a very loose game and a situation in which BB will likely defend and c/r.

[mattnxtc]

I think my own reason for calling it "basic" is that it is similar to what is covered in other books such as sshe. I wasnt referring to the entire section being basic, just the initial introduction and concepts such as looking to play suited connectors in multiple limped pots instead of small pots and so forth. That is what I was saying is a pretty standard preflop introduction.

The rest of the concepts are really open to discussion. I think to a point some of what your talkin about may be covered in the section on isolating people.

[Ajezz]

I read Stox's book some weeks ago, but basically skipped the preflop section. This thread encouraged me to go through the section again and compare his hand chart to the one I use and my pokertracker stats.
I found that basically the open raising range in the book (the hand chart on p.12) is quite a bit looser than mine, especially with the small pairs and suited connectors. I sometimes muck 22 on the button, Stox open raises it from the CO; and he opens hand slike T9s or 98s much earlier than I do. Also his recommendations for opening ace and king high are usually a kicker looser than I'm used to.
So I guess I will try loosening up my default raising standards a bit and see how that works out. I currently run at 24/20 and think this might be a little too nitty...

[mattnxtc]

I believe stox said his range will get you to like 30/20 if I remember right. He has always said not to take his words as law. I think as you get better post flop you can open your hand range up to a certain extent. Try adding one or two hands in at a time and see what happens.

[thorleif]

One thing that must be accounted for with these opening ranges is that most games that we are playing have considerably higher rake. Therefore it can be devastating to your winrate to push the slightest edges that stox does with some of the marginal hands. The following are rake in terms of BB/100 for small stakes nonJP AP tables.

1/2 - 3.42
2/4 - 3.83
3/6 - 3.74
5/T - 2.92

I think the lesser rake at 1/2 can be credited to less aggressive games resulting in smaller overall pots. Sample size may be an issue here but these numbers can give us a general idea.

In the games that stox plays (50/100 +) the rake is negligible(fractions of a BB/100).

I think that having multiple very loose passive opponents in the game can also push towards cutting out some hands also, although this may not be as great of a factor since I think most of us have a great postflop edge versus these players.

I would recommend as a generalization for stakes up to 3/6 that one pip be removed from most of the ranges stated as a start. Starting at 5/T stox' ranges become more applicable.

Always remember to look at the remaining players yet to act when opening a pot for a raise. Cut out hands if they have looser preflop stats and add a few if they are tight.

I am going to reread this section and post any thoughts I may have missed. Any general idea of when will the next discussion be taking place? So I have a deadline.

[thepizzlefosho]

oink has made some really good posts about this, and you guys should bug him to dig one up or respond here. Basically stox's chart is a decent starting point for your average tough 3/6 or 5/10 game, but it is just that: a starting point.

You need to learn how to adapt these guidelines based on the table. I can for one say that I feel like my opening guidelines a bit tighter than stox, but I play 30/21 anyway. i find some spots to over limp and i find more hands to iso-raise 3-bet than I think he recommends. The advantage of this is that I have similar preflop stats as him, but instead of just opening A8o UTG, or opening 22 in the CO, I am picking spots where I have a combination of position, dead money, and a poor player that I want HU. I think this makes all of the difference.

So while I think it is a nice places to start, if you focus your preflop study on trying mimick stox's chart then I think you are actually hurting yourself in the long run. I think it is better to start thinking of spots where you could 3-bet more, or find spots where you have such tight blinds or players behind you that you can open up even more than stox's guidelines.