RAZZ - PStars weird 4th street call - Page 3

RustyBrooks · #21 08-27-2007, 04:02 PM

Well, ok, not almost. But you aren't ahead.

Praxising · #22 08-27-2007, 04:03 PM

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In your imaginary hand, he has to catch a card better than an 8 (or whatever card you draw on 5th), and you have to catch worse than a 9, for him to swing ahead. In the actual hand, he just has to catch better than a Q or whatever card you draw on 5th. He will improve almost all of the time and so will too, but your best improvement on 5th is too a J. If these are the same to you, put them through a simulator and see.

In the actual hand you're a dog to almost any range:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

In the imaginary hand you're pretty well ahead even if he has nice hole cards:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

Being "ahead" on 4th doesn't mean much in this case.

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I don't know how you got that result, I reran it:

85JQ = 89.29
QQK8 = 10.71
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

I'll go try something a little more realistic...
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

85JQ = 51.15%
xxK8 = 48.85%

So, like I thought, probably 50/50. No way am I giving this guy the pot without seeing 5th street.

RustyBrooks · #23 08-27-2007, 04:04 PM

(Q- Q-) means 2 cards Q or less, not paired.

SGspecial · #24 08-27-2007, 04:06 PM

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As Ks 2s 0.453
Jh 8h 5h 0.547

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I don't know what this means.

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It means if you have (85)J and the villain has perfect hole cards with (A2)K that you have 54.7% equity in the pot in an all-in simulation, or IOW the best hand. You however do not have a monster or a hand where you're trying to suck in the villain to play with you by slowplaying 3rd. Villain's range here is very polarized and he either has trash or a hand only slightly worse than yours almost 100% of the time. If you want to try out different lines for this game and find out for yourself which are strategically sound, then please do and report back to us with your findings. If you want to ask advice of experienced players/posters in order to improve your game, you may have to consider the possibility that they are occasionally right.

Praxising · #25 08-27-2007, 04:13 PM

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As Ks 2s 0.453
Jh 8h 5h 0.547

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I don't know what this means.

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He's comparing your equity against A2K (you're almost a 3:2 dog)

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Rusty, I'm the J85. I'm not a dog in any of these, even when he has the best possible hand.

RustyBrooks · #26 08-27-2007, 04:16 PM

Sorry, I mixed up the numbers. However you are a dog to loooots of hands on 4th. (as much as a 2:1 dog in some cases)

jbrennen · #27 08-27-2007, 04:22 PM

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OK, let me ask you, when it's folded around to the player on your right who has a card better than yours and they raise, don't you think it's about 90% steal?

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Really? When I'm showing a King? If I'm showing a King, I figure that probably about 2/3 of the time, he's got a better hand and better odds to win than I do. Even if I've got two wheel cards. So maybe 1/3 steal, 2/3 value bet.

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Do you think they always have two good cards underneath? Do you think a lot of the time they might have junk? If I just call, I say I want to play. If I want to play, I must have good cards underneath. If he believes that going into the hand, doesn't that mean he is likely to fold in a toss-up situation later?

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The fact that you want to play shows that you don't really get it with this hand. You shouldn't want to play this hand. You should want him to fold on 3rd street, even if you have (A-2)-J.

Also, I think that the majority of decent Razz players will read your 3rd street limp as weakness, not as strength. To me, it means you have a hand that can't stand up to a reraise.

Praxising · #28 08-27-2007, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It means if you have (85)J and the villain has perfect hole cards with (A2)K that you have 54.7% equity in the pot in an all-in simulation, or IOW the best hand. You however do not have a monster or a hand where you're trying to suck in the villain to play with you by slowplaying 3rd. Villain's range here is very polarized and he either has trash or a hand only slightly worse than yours almost 100% of the time. If you want to try out different lines for this game and find out for yourself which are strategically sound, then please do and report back to us with your findings. If you want to ask advice of experienced players/posters in order to improve your game, you may have to consider the possibility that they are occasionally right.

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Thanks for the explanation SG. You know, I always appreciate the time and effort it takes to post answers here. And I am entirely aware that you and JB and others are vastly more experienced than I am. But some people learn best by discussion and dialogue.

I do know the most important question anyone ever asks of a teacher is: how do you know?

I searched all of your Razz posts and TTs and read every one weeks ago. I made notes on many, followed links, did my homework.

But I think seminar, not lecture hall. I'm sorry you think that isn't sufficiently respectful. It is not my intention to appear to discount what people say. This is just how I learn. It's how a lot of people learn, like lurkers who haven't the personality to just come out and argue with the "professors." I do.

Praxising · #29 08-27-2007, 04:38 PM

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Also, I think that the majority of decent Razz players will read your 3rd street limp as weakness, not as strength. To me, it means you have a hand that can't stand up to a reraise.

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Right. It couldn't, I wouldn't risk it. And you believing this, doesn't that mean that later you are going to stay in longer to try and draw out and give me more money if I do make a hand? And don't I lose less money if I tank?

I'm not saying limping is right. I'm saying it isn't wrong. Raising is good, too.

RustyBrooks · #30 08-27-2007, 04:57 PM

But you're also putting him on garbage here when he bets 4th and doesn't that mean you're going to stay in longer and give him more money if he makes a hand?

Raising 3rd gives him an option to make a mistake, and instead he gets to play optimally.

Calling 4th... that's a tiny pot and it's going to be hard to win without making the best hand.