Weird bring in hand (RAZZ)

[Leader]

Decided to play a little Razz tonight for the first time in a while. I'm def. rusty. No reads yet.

Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.17 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (5.50 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises

5th Street - (7.25 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (10.25 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___...?

[Bremen]

I'd have a very hard time folding getting 11-1. That said I have to believe your opponents hold most of your outs :-(

[Andy B]

I think you have to call and hope. I think you've played the rest of the hand fine.

[2461Badugi]

You're getting 11-1 and drawing live. Call.

I hate those dead threes so much I'd give serious thought to folding third.

[big e]

On 5th your betting against an 8 low with the way seat 6 pays on 6th street your betting against a 7 low.

The only cards that will help you is a 2 or 3 (5 cards, I would assume at least 1 or 2 of the cards you need are dead, leaving 3) and you need to take into account that its not just 1 bet, there will be a least another one on the river possible 2 and you will have to fold if you have a 7 low. Even if you make your 6 low both seats can still out draw you.

I would fold, your up against 2 made hands that can still improve against you.

[Micturition Man]

One thing to consider is that based on the exposed cards alone there is a strong chance that seat 7 paired sevens. Likewise that seat 6 paired fives on 5th.

How much that probability should be modified by their 6th street actions I'm not sure.

I'm not saying this is standard or anything but I think against reasonably strong opponents a semi-bluff raise on 6th may be a lot better than a call. (Followed by a river bluff unless you improve to something like 76.)

Also if seat 7 did not pair sevens it seems very likely he has only an 87 low, making your draw better.

The exposed cards make this hand quite interesting but I can't really look at it in depth right now since I am playing a couple of tables.

[big e]

When anyone makes a play here its against 2 op's the best outcome of that is to make this heads-up so why make this move when you have paired.

[Micturition Man]

It's a semibluff that sets up a pure bluff on the river.

Once you raise 6th they will give you credit for a made 6, and if they do make crying calls on the river it's only going to be with hands like smooth eights, which means a river bluff should have a strong chance of succeeding, if seat 7 is in fact paired or at least 87.

Also driving out the 85 (which should be guaranteed if he is good) gives you some equity in any case, but a ton of equity if seat 7 has paired.

The more I think about it the more I think it's an excellent play, frankly, at least against strong (or weak-tight, obv) opponents. I might be missing something obvious though as I am distracted right now.

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]

Once you raise 6th they will give you credit for a made 6,

[/ QUOTE ]

They can see the dead threes as well as you can. You're never getting credit for a made six in this hand.

[Micturition Man]

There are still four 2's and one three, excluding what each person sees in his own hand. But actually yeah you are right.

Still if they don't specifically put you on a 6 they are going to believe you are raising for value, and considering how many dead cards there are the 85 is going to have to seriously considering folding even if he is not paired, looking at two possible made sevens.

Plus consider that even if it doesn't work nobody is going to 3-bet you so it only costs, at most, one extra bet.