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  #1  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:13 PM
Berge20 Berge20 is offline
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Default Overbetting: When to use it?

Overbetting is when you make a bet or raise larger than the size of the pot, sometimes significantly. This is a move that isn't used frequently at lower stakes, but I wanted to have a discussion about it. These are just some initial thoughts and while many of the uses depend on the situations and players involved, I'd appreciate comments on when you use this overbet tactic.

No Limit Holdem gives us the opportunity to apply significant pressure to our opponents by using large bets to try and make them make incorrect decisions.

Commonly, the overbet is used in situations such as:

1. The River Overbet - You've made it to the river and believe that you have the best hand (most times the nuts) and the villian has the 2nd nuts or a hand that can easily call more than the size of the pot.

2. Flop Bet, 3-Bet AI - A common line with a set or big draw against a preflop raiser OOP who we believe has a big overpair is to lead and move AI over a raise.

3. Preflop - Frequently people find spots to ovebet AI preflop with big pairs or ace-king.

Now, while these spots are fairly common, I think they often only represent one angle on overbetting--one where you are certainly ahead.

Yet, overbetting in other situations is far less common. Sometimes this is for good reason. Arguably that we only get calls from hands that beat us and fold out weaker holdings. However, removing this tactic from our playbook really hamstrings things--particularly against opponents who are semi-competent, but on the weak-tight side.

The first example that jumps to mind comes from my own play. Say I am the preflop agressor and cbet the flop with a one-pair hand on a fairly drawless board with someone check-calling me. It's not uncommon for us to try and utlize pot control on the turn and check behind so that we can call a reasonably sized river bet or value bet if checked to. However, if this bet is 2x the size of the pot--I may find myself getting squirrly. Did the guy go for a turn CR and miss, now trying to make up for it?

Just wanted to get the ball rolling for a broader discussion than just hands, but certainly we can use examples to articulate further.
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:47 PM
CalledDownLight CalledDownLight is offline
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Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

This play is so sick as a bluff too. You kind of have to take a guess as to opponent tendencies taking into account the flow of the game too. I would basically never overbet unless you feel very confident in your read of their hand and whether or not they will call. Its far more likely you get looked up if you didn't raise preflop and do something like c/r the flop and then have a flush draw brick so think about that too. I have a hand from last night where I think an overbet was a decent play. Yes, I realize that I had the best hand a portion of the time, but he hardly ever has a hand that can call outside of KQ imo. Not the best hand for this, but just the last one that I could find.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($194)
Button ($75.35)
SB ($38)
BB ($198.80)
UTG ($184)
UTG+1 ($404.35)
Hero ($218.15)
MP2 ($243.85)
MP3 ($590.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $8, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: ($19) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, MP3 calls $14.

Turn: ($47) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $32</font>, MP3 calls $32.

River: ($111) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $164.15 (All-In)</font>
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:47 PM
threads13 threads13 is offline
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Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

Not much time, but I often use it against calling players when I have the goods. They still tend to call a 1.5x to 2x bet.
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:50 PM
SABR42 SABR42 is offline
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Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

Most of my overbets are on the river. This is because my opponent has already called me twice, so my overbet stands a decent chance of getting called (if it's for value).

And you don't need the nuts to overbet for value. You just need a better hand than what he'd call with. Generally anything better than top two pair is way ahead of anyone's calling range (this is dependant on the board texture of course, two pair on a 4-straight board is not so good obv).

Overbetting works best when your hand is deceptive. For example if you're chasing a flush draw, and get there on the river, overbetting is usually bad against anyone observant, because it's obvious the flush got there. But if instead you had bottom pair and a flush draw, and hit trips on the river instead of the flush, your hand is deceptive and overbetting might be a good idea.

Just some random thoughts...
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  #5  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:56 PM
livestream livestream is offline
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Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

he i overbet very often.


No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
8 players


Stack sizes:
UTG: $1013
UTG+1: $1000
MP1: $987
MP2: $2384.25
CO: $945
Button: $1110.50
SB: $190
Hero: $995

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises to $40</font>, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: ($125, 3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 bets $80</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $220</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: ($565, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $735</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 calls all-in $727</font>.
Uncalled bets: $8 returned to Hero.

River: ($2019, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $2019)


Results:
Final pot: $2019
<font color="#ffffff">Hero shows 6s 7s </font>
<font color="#ffffff">MP1 doesn't show Td Th </font>
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2007, 02:35 PM
too eazy too eazy is offline
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Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

You guys will think I'm levelling but I'm not.

You should overbet any time you are 99+% sure that you will get a fold or a call (one or the other) depending on the strength of your hand.

Not doing so is a huge leak, and a common leak.

I was better about it like a month ago but anyone who played with me can attest that I overbet in some spots they may have found bizarre.
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2007, 02:59 PM
Berge20 Berge20 is offline
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Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

Eazy, can you give an example?

We are rarely 99% certain of what our opponents will do, but I certainly understand your point.

As we've seen, the typical overbetting scenario is when we are very sure we are ahead. Anyone have other scenarios where overbetting might be good when we do not have the best hand? It is very villian/flow dependent, but I'm trying to think of other spots where I am uncomfortable calling a large bet.
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:00 PM
novel20 novel20 is offline
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Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

Not sure how a busted flush draw can call you???

[ QUOTE ]
This play is so sick as a bluff too. You kind of have to take a guess as to opponent tendencies taking into account the flow of the game too. I would basically never overbet unless you feel very confident in your read of their hand and whether or not they will call. Its far more likely you get looked up if you didn't raise preflop and do something like c/r the flop and then have a flush draw brick so think about that too. I have a hand from last night where I think an overbet was a decent play. Yes, I realize that I had the best hand a portion of the time, but he hardly ever has a hand that can call outside of KQ imo. Not the best hand for this, but just the last one that I could find.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($194)
Button ($75.35)
SB ($38)
BB ($198.80)
UTG ($184)
UTG+1 ($404.35)
Hero ($218.15)
MP2 ($243.85)
MP3 ($590.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $8, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: ($19) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, MP3 calls $14.

Turn: ($47) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $32</font>, MP3 calls $32.

River: ($111) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $164.15 (All-In)</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:04 PM
threads13 threads13 is offline
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Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

[ QUOTE ]
Not much time, but I often use it against calling players when I have the goods. They still tend to call a 1.5x to 2x bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should clarify. The goods doesn't necessarily equal the nuts. The goods can be TPTK versus certain opponents. Yes, I balance this out with some overbets with air.
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:10 PM
CalledDownLight CalledDownLight is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: burning money in non-ring games
Posts: 4,541
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure how a busted flush draw can call you???

[ QUOTE ]
This play is so sick as a bluff too. You kind of have to take a guess as to opponent tendencies taking into account the flow of the game too. I would basically never overbet unless you feel very confident in your read of their hand and whether or not they will call. Its far more likely you get looked up if you didn't raise preflop and do something like c/r the flop and then have a flush draw brick so think about that too. I have a hand from last night where I think an overbet was a decent play. Yes, I realize that I had the best hand a portion of the time, but he hardly ever has a hand that can call outside of KQ imo. Not the best hand for this, but just the last one that I could find.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($194)
Button ($75.35)
SB ($38)
BB ($198.80)
UTG ($184)
UTG+1 ($404.35)
Hero ($218.15)
MP2 ($243.85)
MP3 ($590.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $8, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: ($19) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, MP3 calls $14.

Turn: ($47) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $32</font>, MP3 calls $32.

River: ($111) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $164.15 (All-In)</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I said that I have the best hand a portion of the time, but I'm pretty sure he didn't have a FD given my read and stats although I could be wrong.
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