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  #1  
Old 11-17-2007, 03:30 AM
Guruman Guruman is offline
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Location: still a NL fish - so lay off!
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Default the pure bluff thread

I'd like to start a thread that highlights the types of bluffs that are possible and typical in a NL game so that we limit lifers can take a gander.

couple of ground rules:
-no semibluffs
-no cont bets
-dont show whether the bluff was successful or not
-live and online hands encouraged
-include reads and or stats if relevant
-discussion welcome!!
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  #2  
Old 11-17-2007, 03:32 AM
Guruman Guruman is offline
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Default Re: the pure bluff thread

here’s an initial batch for your perusal.


1)
Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

effective stack sizes about 120 bb.

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

-loose call, but the intent was to pick up the pot because these guys were tending to play fit or fold postflop

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($0.75, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $0.5</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

-bluff #1. relatively uncoordinated board, and the stack sizes are still deep enough behind that villains will need a plan to continue if they’re drawless

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1.75, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

-I’m generally giving up here.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($1.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1</font>, Button…

turn and river blanked off and villain is trying to give up. My hand is bad enough that it probably folds out a number of better hands, and this also blocks some worse hands from bluffing back with whiffed draws.



2)
Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Button: $21.55
SB: $14
Hero: $24.05

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Button folds, SB calls $0.15 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $0.35)</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.75</font>, SB calls $0.5 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $1)</font>.

-blind battle bluffs are tough because dudes never believe each other. Pf raise here was for value and to exploit position. I’m barely getting into the whole SPR groove, but when looked at in an SPR light my raise size wasn’t great because it put me at 14, which kind of sucks for this type of hand if villain is tough. This guy isn’t though.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($1.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $0.5</font>, Hero calls.

villain donked into me on this low board, and made a weak looking bet. Instead of raising right away, I decide to float and try to take it on the turn. The main reason for this is so that I can change plans if I see a straight card fall off.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($2.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $0.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, SB…

-the bluff trifecta! I can rep this card, it doesn’t complete any draws, and there’s still enough left behind that a raise should scare the bejeebus out of any non-made hand here. Further, villain made what looks like a series of two blocking bets. Up we go!

3) Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $5.40
UTG+1: $44.75
CO: $46.45
Button: $25.95
SB: $2.40
Hero: $26.25

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO calls $0.25 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $0.35)</font>, 2 folds, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($0.6, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $0.5</font>, CO calls $0.5 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $1.1)</font>.

-I like to donk into mono flops when HU if only for the fact that the majority of the time villain wont have the flush draw and will have to make a tough decision. villain peeled here, so I put him on a diamond in some form or another.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($1.6, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

-villain’s turn check through was a little problematic. He’s almost surely not already flushed, but it now becomes somewhat less likely that he had the diamond in the first place since I’d expect a semibluff there most of the time. The turn check suggests a weak pair or some version of a flush draw that may have showdown potential.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($1.6, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $6</font>, CO …

-wheeeee nut low! I contemplated betting right out here, but I didn’t like the risk/reward of doing that in such an obvious spot. I’m not missing any value if we check through and he accidentally drags it, but the other advantage to checking is that I can induce a bluff myself here. Once he puts the river bet in I have to think that he’s most likely on a busted flush or a one-pair type hand that is going to hate seeing this action on this specific card. I played my hand just like a draw, and the river is a great bluff card vs that range. Since I was on the nut low I decided to hedge a bit and raise an amount that was likely to push him off of a few made hands. A smaller raise gets him off of a similar range, but I wasn’t really in the mood to get looked up with middle pair here. Thought on this hand appreciated!

thx
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  #3  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:35 AM
JavaNut JavaNut is offline
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Default Re: the pure bluff thread

Not that I don't get what you are trying to do with those 3 hands. But you needs reads on your opponents for doing this and you have not mentioned anything about reads. Against anybody that have calling station traits this is pure spew.

So firstly you need to know if villain lays down top pair low kicker, if villain is fit or fold on the flop and whether villain slowplays a lot.

Unless you know that you will not be milked by a villain just waiting for you to do this, you are just spewing.

Aggression is a very large part of NL, but it have to be controlled aggression.

Others may be better on reads than me, they might contribute with their insight in this thread, which do have potential.
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  #4  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:39 AM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: the pure bluff thread

All 3 hands I would've been long gone wayyyyyy before any
hard decisions. I don't like coin flips - those crazy scandinavians can hav'em!
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  #5  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:44 AM
Webster Webster is offline
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Location: Columbus WI
Posts: 3,649
Default Re: the pure bluff thread

I think bluffing in the micro's is pretty -EV. the only time I'll bluff is when the board is paired. I normally see the first bet take the pot. Not always but . . . . .

The problem in NL low limits is most fish are bluffers and can not be bluffed lol
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:53 AM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: the pure bluff thread

yeh, I pretty much take the approach I want to back my actions with some little thing, and assume others do the same.

Someone bluffs me right off a hand? Good on'im! I'm patient, I will have my moments too, and that set+ is going to slap'im inna face!
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  #7  
Old 11-17-2007, 11:12 AM
Guruman Guruman is offline
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Default Re: the pure bluff thread

this is interesting. I find bluffing to be remarkably profitable - even at the micro level. It really is all about finding the right spots though. Bad bluffers bluff without a story or bluff when the other guy has his nails dug in. I don't think I have examples of that here.

fwiw I played a 784 hand session yesterday and these were the three pure bluffs I came up with (I was actively setting pure bluff hands aside in anticipation of making this post.) Thats a pure bluff rate of .3% of the hands I was dealt, which I felt was pretty disciplined. This of course is non-inclusive of standard cont bets and semibluffs on the flop with outs. In all there were 83 hands in which i put money in and then did not get to showdown for one reason or another. These three pure bluffs account for 3.6% of that range.

I didnt mention it, but none of the people I played against last night were classical calling stations.

does anyone see anything glaringly wrong on the technical side of these hands, or am I just getting chastised for the stakes I was playing at?
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  #8  
Old 11-17-2007, 11:45 AM
Webster Webster is offline
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Default Re: the pure bluff thread

That third hand I think you are cookoo bananas LOL

Not saying you should NEVER bluff - it's all about table conditions. Bluff at Bodog and you will just get called by other people bluffing. I guess 50% flop tables it' harder to bluff.

If you are at a 30% table where people are playing scared - go ahead. And as long as you can GIVE UP on a bluff that is fine.
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  #9  
Old 11-17-2007, 03:28 PM
Alobar Alobar is offline
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Posts: 17,702
Default Re: the pure bluff thread

[ QUOTE ]

does anyone see anything glaringly wrong on the technical side of these hands, or am I just getting chastised for the stakes I was playing at?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasnt even paying attention to the stakes, and I think hand 3 is terrible. If he folds its cuz he doesnt have [censored], and a much smaller raise than a giant overbet would have gotten him to do the same thing. If hes any decent at hand reading he should realize your hand is a total bluff, what exactly are you repping? There isnt a single hand that makes sense that you would play this way. You dont have a fullhouse because you wouldnt have checked the turn with 2 pair or a set on this board, and you dont have a flush because you wouldnt put in a huge c/r overbet once the board paired. Same with a naked 9. If it worked I think its only because he wasnt even attempting to hand read or he doesnt have anything that would have called a much smaller c/r.


I pretty much try to avoud pure bluffs, every solid player ive heard give advice either in books or CR videos talks about having at least a little something, which makes a lot of sense. the only time I'll do it is if I'm sure hes just on a better bluff than I am. A pure bluff is pretty exhilarating when it works tho, but ask youself are you doing it because you think its the most EV play possible, or just for the rush? Both of which are good enough reasons to do it, just so long as it fits in with what your goal for playing poker is. (for money, or for fun)
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