QQ vs AM

[sh58]

surely it is shove or fold preflop.

i prefer a shove

[nazahl]

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surely it is shove or fold preflop.

i prefer a shove

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why cant I just flat preflop?

[sh58]

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surely it is shove or fold preflop.

i prefer a shove

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why cant I just flat preflop?

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i never do it personally, i think it is horrible unless you are really deep.

what range do you flat call 4bets with?

and do you ever fold once you call?

[nazahl]

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I wouldn't comment if the hand he folded wasn't really interesting. btch. also Im the villian in this hand

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okay, so... why not share some thoughts then champ

[Peleus]

I'm shoving this preflop instead of calling. When you call, what are you trying to achieve?

There are two main goals I can think of, a) A low flop, which is the result you got. b) A Q on the flop.

Only reason I can think of for not shoving preflop is either you're worried about it being KK+ and you're dominated, or for value you're trying to extract more. I think if you're worried about AA/KK then getting your first goal won't help you at all, you're still in the same spot with the same choice, only way you can improve by calling is trying to spike a queen, essentially turning QQ into a set mining hand.

If Villain has AK then calling pre flop lets them see the flop, and bet when he has you beat, or fold when you have him beat, you won't get value out of it. Again neither of your goals for calling preflop help you when you are against that hand.

Of course it can also get you in the situation when a Axx or AKx flop comes, in which case you're in horrible shape.

Shoving preflop sets up an easy decision for you (I'm not saying you should make wrong choices because they are easy), maximizes against this range, if you are planning on getting it all in on a low flop anyway.

Calling is just going to bring a flop that hurts you against their range, rather then help you, a hell of a lot more.

[Rollos]

I'm pretty sure that if you're shoving this on a non A flop then you should be shoving preflop since it's more EV. I'm too lazy to do the math though.

[nazahl]

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I'm shoving this preflop instead of calling. When you call, what are you trying to achieve?

There are two main goals I can think of, a) A low flop, which is the result you got. b) A Q on the flop.


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you're gonna get a flop w/out an A or K two thirds of the time. and you'll flop a set 1 time in 8 as well.

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If Villain has AK then calling pre flop lets them see the flop, and bet when he has you beat, or fold when you have him beat, you won't get value out of it. Again neither of your goals for calling preflop help you when you are against that hand.


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if he has AK then he gets to see all 5 cards and when the money goes in its 50/50.

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Of course it can also get you in the situation when a Axx or AKx flop comes, in which case you're in horrible shape.



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yea, and I can just check/fold since its so likely im beat and have saved 2/3 of my stack.

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Shoving preflop sets up an easy decision for you (I'm not saying you should make wrong choices because they are easy), maximizes against this range, if you are planning on getting it all in on a low flop anyway.


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if his range for calling the shove is KK+, AK then it makes for an easy decision for villain. since he's at worst 50/50.

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Calling is just going to bring a flop that hurts you against their range, rather then help you, a hell of a lot more.

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again, 2/3 of the time the flop is favorable.

I'm not sold either way since I felt QQ a lot preflop but we're talking about an utg raiser here.

[pete6969]

vs a utg raise with these stats i think i puke alittle and fold preflop

[blah-blah-blah]

folding to the 4 bet is bad imo. i think this player was in a cardrunners vid I saw and they played very very aggressively both pre and post flop.

[fees]

tbh i like this line, seems more profitable than shoving, if you deem shoving the correct play