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#31
09-17-2007, 11:19 AM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
[ QUOTE ]
If we are behind his range OOP then we're bluffing. [/ QUOTE ] No wai! Also, its an awful lot to do with his calling range, not just his opening range. [ QUOTE ] Maybe this isn't the best hand for bluffing and another hand that's also behind his range but is less likely to be dominated would be better? [/ QUOTE ] I've yet to see a convincing argument that proves something like 98s is that much better than KJo tbh. 
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#32
09-17-2007, 11:29 AM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] KJo has 41% equity vs the 20% stealing range I gave him (obv just an approximation): 22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A8o+,KJo+ [/ QUOTE ] I don't see what KJo's equity vs villains opening range has to do with anything tbh. [/ QUOTE ] lol, no it doesn't really What's important is his calling range, we're obv screwed in terms of equity if called, but if he calls too few 3-bets we'll make a profit anyways. In general I think 3-betting a 17/12s co-steal with KJo is bad though, because his opening range is probably tight and we can easily end up in tricky spot oop like this where he can easily just call down with hands like Aj/AA-QQ etc letting us hang ourselves. If A5 had a read that he's weak vs 3-bet then of course we should exploit that by 3-betting more. In general I think 3-betting is bad though and I'd be more likely to do it with 98s or something because it's better vs the actually calls with.
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#33
09-17-2007, 11:31 AM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
[ QUOTE ]
No wai! [/ QUOTE ]ya rly! [ QUOTE ] Also, its an awful lot to do with his calling range, not just his opening range. [/ QUOTE ]I think KJo loses more against his calling range as compared to medium SCs. If you believe he calls exploitably little then you can 3bet with ATC while it lasts so let's assume he calls a reasonable range. [ QUOTE ] I've yet to see a convincing argument that proves something like 98s is that much better than KJo tbh. [/ QUOTE ]I'm not good enough to provide a convincing one. If we take (for example) the 9% top hands as defined by pokerstove then we see that KJo == 98s against that range. That's obviously not a convincing argument that 98s > KJo here.
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#34
09-17-2007, 11:35 AM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
[ QUOTE ]
I've yet to see a convincing argument that proves something like 98s is that much better than KJo tbh. [/ QUOTE ] Implied odds. We'll stack him often on Q88-flops for example. KJo isn't likely to make many hands we like to get our money in with, and when it does it's more likely villain has made an even stronger hand, alternatively folds because the board looks scary. With 98s we'll get plenty of opportunitys to push him off better hands when flopping a strong draw. Etc.
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#36
09-17-2007, 11:46 AM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
arg, 98s and KJo are both good to 3bet here each in their own ways. Sure, 98s flops cinch hands and we win stacks. KJo flops top pair more and we win more showdowns.
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#37
09-17-2007, 11:49 AM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
[ QUOTE ]
arg, 98s and KJo are both good to 3bet here each in their own ways. Sure, 98s flops cinch hands and we win stacks. KJo flops top pair more and we win more showdowns. [/ QUOTE ] Don't really know how many sd:s we'll win with KJ vs this player after we 3-bet preflop. We're most likely dominated if we get called or in a postion where we won't get paid off by TT-88ish hands.
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#38
09-17-2007, 11:52 AM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] arg, 98s and KJo are both good to 3bet here each in their own ways. Sure, 98s flops cinch hands and we win stacks. KJo flops top pair more and we win more showdowns. [/ QUOTE ] Don't really know how many sd:s we'll win with KJ vs this player after we 3-bet preflop. We're most likely dominated if we get called or in a postion where we won't get paid off by TT-88ish hands. [/ QUOTE ] Are you just ignoring the fact this 'domination' applies to 98s aswell?
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#39
09-17-2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
also, i think in an aggressive shorthanded game you are overestimating "domination" a little. If we flop top pair after 3betting this guy, it figures to be good, plain and simple.
rr pre with KJo, flop Jxx, we are doing pretty good vs a preflop calling range of pairs, mid suited connectors and AKAQ, flop Kxx, we are doing pretty good vs the same range. Ranges are simply too wide in this spot for domination to be an enormous concern.
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#40
09-17-2007, 12:04 PM
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Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] arg, 98s and KJo are both good to 3bet here each in their own ways. Sure, 98s flops cinch hands and we win stacks. KJo flops top pair more and we win more showdowns. [/ QUOTE ] Don't really know how many sd:s we'll win with KJ vs this player after we 3-bet preflop. We're most likely dominated if we get called or in a postion where we won't get paid off by TT-88ish hands. [/ QUOTE ] Are you just ignoring the fact this 'domination' applies to 98s aswell? [/ QUOTE ] Both hands equity vs a range like 99+,AJs+,KQs,AKo is almost identical. What I'm trying to say is that when 98s makes a strong hand it's likely more concealed and will get paid off a lot more often. When we make a strong hand with KJ we likely need to fear villain having an even better. Point being flops that hits KJo hard will also hit villain's range hard, most often harder because his range clearly dominates us (AA-TT/AK/AQ/KQs etc). Let's say he call preflop and the flop is 88x. He'll probably stack off with most overpairs, while he'll much more likely to get away from most PPs on JJx- or Kxx-boards. On the Kxx-board for example we won't get action from worse often. That being said of course we'll not get action from worse on a 9xx-flop either, but 98s rely on making TP hands much less than KJo. This seems pretty basic to me, am I missing something?
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