plo/8 starting hands

[mrroyboy]

Here it is. I copied and paste it. I hope I didn't violate any forum rules.


Because of lack of PLO8 literature it would be interesting to know what starting hands you play. These hands do I play:

*x=any card (of course)

EP (unraised):
AAxx
A2+3-5+x(A suited)
A346(A suited)
A356(A suited)
A456(A suited)
A23+4-6
A24+5-6
A34+5-6
2345
2346
K23+4-5(K suited)
AKK+2-5(A suited)
AQQ+2-5(A suited)
KQJT
A+ 3 cards above T(A suited)

MP (unraised):
I add
QJT9
2356
KK+ 2 cards of different rank below 5
QQ+ 2 cards of different rank below 5

LP (unraised):
I add
A3+4-5+x(A suited)
A456
2456
3456
KK+ 2 cards of different rank below 8
QQ+ 2 cards of different rank below 8

Button and SB (unraised):
I add
A4xx(A suited)
Any 4 cards above T
Any 3 cards of different rank below 6
KKxx
QQxx

I continue with raised pots in my next post

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Ironman
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Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 596
Loc: On my bike...and playing O8 Re: My PLO8 starting hand selection [Re: BarbarianX]
#4413138 - 01/11/06 10:54 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I have very similar requirements.

I have two slight differences.

I don't usually play the K K (and two low cards) or Q Q (and two low cards) outside of the blinds.

But (and I understand this is sacreligious) I will play any four connected cards in an unraised pot (6 7 8 9).

So, not much difference. Neither of these types of hands happen often enough to make a dramatic difference in my winrate.

I play such a tight game that every once in awhile I like to show cards that give the impression I have loose starting requirements.

Dave

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XxPenguinxX
enthusiast


Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 304
Re: My PLO8 starting hand selection [Re: BarbarianX]
#4413615 - 01/11/06 11:46 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Would you really not play A237 from EP if the Ace weren't suited?

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BarbarianX
enthusiast


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 321
Re: My PLO8 starting hand selection [Re: Ironman]
#4413619 - 01/11/06 11:47 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I read somewhere KK/QQ + two low were'nt good enough starting hands because those premium limit two way hands gets either counterfeited in the low or either lose in the high end to a straight or a flush or at least get freerolled from the turn and on. But I have taken them back because I think I often won with those against weak players chasing low only hands on a two low card flop.

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BarbarianX
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Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 321
Re: My PLO8 starting hand selection [Re: XxPenguinxX]
#4413691 - 01/11/06 11:55 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Probably, but that would be in objection to my theory... :P

No, I really think the hand lack of high hand quality. In my view A236 is a MUCH stronger hand. 45x flops give me an incredibly strong high draw but a 7 doesn't help A23 much. And A23 without a 6 (or a 4/5) or a suited ace is the kind of hand you get quartered with.

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BarbarianX
enthusiast


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 321
Re: My PLO8 starting hand selection [Re: Ironman]
#4413729 - 01/11/06 11:59 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Ironman, can you explain your thoughts about playing middle cards. I muck them without a second thought, but I see people playing them from time to time. I have always regarded this as a huge error, have I missed something? My main objection is that you must hit an almost perfect rainbow flop of 776 or 457 and still you're almost always playing for half the pot.

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BarbarianX
enthusiast


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 321
Updated list [Re: BarbarianX]
#4415230 - 01/11/06 02:14 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I missed A2xx(A suited) in LP and A3xx(A suited) in Button and SB


EP (unraised):
AAxx
A2+3-5+x(A suited)
A346(A suited)
A356(A suited)
A456(A suited)
A23+4-6
A24+5-6
A34+5-6
2345
2346
K23+4-5(K suited)
AKK+2-5(A suited)
AQQ+2-5(A suited)
KQJT
A+ 3 cards above T(A suited)

MP (unraised):
I add
QJT9
2356
KK+ 2 cards of different rank below 5
QQ+ 2 cards of different rank below 5

LP (unraised):
I add
A2xx(A suited)
A3+4-5+x(A suited)
A456
2456
3456
KK+ 2 cards of different rank below 8
QQ+ 2 cards of different rank below 8

Button and SB (unraised):
I add
A3xx(A suited)
A4xx(A suited)
Any 4 cards above T
Any 3 cards of different rank below 6
KKxx
QQxx

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Ironman
addict


Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 596
Loc: On my bike...and playing O8 Re: My PLO8 starting hand selection [Re: BarbarianX]
#4415327 - 01/11/06 02:21 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Let me preface this by saying that Buzz and I have had this conversation before and he believes that playing these middle cards is an absolute mistake. Most likely, he is right on the money with this one as well.

But, here is what I have found (and this only works in PLO8 by the way).

1. I will only limp with these hands. So, for a very small bet, I can see if I get a good fit.

2. These hands are very easy to play because when they miss, they really miss. When they hit, they really hit.

3. When I'm playing for the top half of a pot with lots of low cards, there are usually several people playing for the low end. I'm happy to build large pot size bets with 2 or 3 low players playing for a quarter of the pot while I get half.

4. When you do hit those cards, it is essential that you play it fast. You need to make any sets and two pairs think long and hard about calling pot sized bets.

I proceed with caution and dump the hand when it looks like I'm beat.

Ironman Dave

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greatwhite
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Reged: 07/04/05
Posts: 567
Re: Updated list [Re: BarbarianX]
#4415461 - 01/11/06 02:32 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I'm curious about what you raise with. Do you ever come in with a raise in any position or do you wait until the pot has been raised. I'm new to PLO8, but have experience in both PLO and o8. I never raise in early or middle position in either of these games.

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jthegreat
old hand


Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 802
Re: Updated list [Re: greatwhite]
#4415512 - 01/11/06 02:37 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I will play any A2xx and most A3xx in LP, but aside from that, it's about the same.

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BarbarianX
enthusiast


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 321
Re: Updated list [Re: greatwhite]
#4415639 - 01/11/06 02:49 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I'm working on a list but it's much harder than make a similar for PLO High. I have an idea about keeping the pot small as long as possible. It's easier to fold and people tend to call with weak hands anyway, like busted out sets and str8's and one way hands that will make them getting quartered/freerolled etc. But in late position I probably raise with A23X (Ace suited) and AA2x (singel or double suited) if there is a bunch of limpers already in. Usually I raise with weaker AAxx hands in late position if I think I can get it heads up. And I'm always ready to go all-in with AAxx (if at least one of the x's is 8 or lower).

I believe PLO8 is a game of folding, preflop AND postflop. I'm sure there are other strategies that might work as well, but I believe hand reading is more difficult so I prefer to keep it simple and play my own cards.

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BarbarianX
enthusiast


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 321
Re: Updated list [Re: jthegreat]
#4415676 - 01/11/06 02:53 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Interesting you said so, because I just made the adjustment when I was playing A29J (Ace suited) three seats from the button. I folded but thought, hey, that one I should have played...! So I added A2xx(As) to Late position and A3xx(As) to "Button and SB".

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Ironman
addict


Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 596
Loc: On my bike...and playing O8 Re: Updated list [Re: greatwhite]
#4416240 - 01/11/06 03:54 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Greatwhite,

This has been a point of a lot of discussion over the last couple years with this group.

I will raise with these groups of hands in general. There are a few more, but for someone who is new to the game, it's better not to stray too far away (I'll mention one other situation at the end).

Typicall raising hands:

A A 2 (pot sized raises)
A A 3-4 (pot sized raises from middle to late position)
A 2 & another good low card (smaller raise...might limp every once in awhile to change things up)

There is one other spot where I will raise. If I'm in late position with several callers in front of me and I hold 4 good high cards 10 or better, I will put in a raise.

My reasoning...most likely my opponents hold most of the low cards. When the high cards come on the flop...I have both position and cards that fit the flop. Often I can get a free card this way as well. When I check this through after the flop, many opponents will mistakenly put me on a strong ace deuce hand that missed instead of a strong high hand.

Just some thoughts,

Ironman Dave

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jthegreat
old hand


Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 802
Re: Updated list [Re: BarbarianX]
#4417050 - 01/11/06 05:06 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Cool, but I will play them unsuited to the A as well. The suitedness helps, but it's not necessary.

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Bullet_Dodger
banned


Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 1790
Loc: puttin things into perspective Re: Updated list [Re: jthegreat]
#4418146 - 01/11/06 06:49 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I dont have guidelines. I play poker.

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[Truthiness24]

Too nebulous and game/player dependent to reduce like this. For example, I might raise in MP with A5QQ in some games and muck it in others.

IMO, O8 is fun because it's more numbers-driven than almost any other form of poker, and yet starting hands are so much dictated by feel, especially at PL.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Here it is. I copied and paste it.

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks.[ QUOTE ]
I hope I didn't violate any forum rules.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not a legal expert but merely copying a thread from one place in the forum to another place in the same forum doesn't seem much like plagiarism to me. Technically, I don't know.

I still don't know why I can't find it using the forum search function. BarbarianX clearly appears in the thread, yet when I search for that term (or name), all I find is this thread. (I have the search set at "from all dates").

Whatever. It's a mystery.

Anyhow, thanks for the reference.

Buzz

[MegaDisgruntled]

"I don't usually play the K K (and two low cards) or Q Q (and two low cards) outside of the blinds"

A234 or KK23, which hand would you rather have if heads up in NL08? It's crazy but the KK23 IS the better hand. Math driven is right, most people don't have a clue as to what hands are good or not.

[quirkasaurus]

i've seen great success at the tables by people
and ( sometimes myself ) calling with bunched
middle cards or better to EP/MP potters. ( sometimes
even to all-ins, but these players tend to be UP
and DOWN quite dramatically. )

i'm talking about hands such as four of 6-J rainbow.

The thinking is: I know what the other guy has;
he has AA23 or something thereabouts. And when the
low doesn't hit, BAM, another pot bet and the original
raiser should relinquish his hand. Not only that, but
chances are, if the low missed, I certainly got a chunk
of that flop, especially if it's something abyssmal as Q92r.

comments?

[bbartlog]

Calling with middle cards like this is only going to work if you can also cause your opponent to fold or call incorrectly some of the time as well. If you are relying only on being able to take down those flops where you really did hit the flop better than opponent, then the math is against you.
Also, if I recognize that I'm up against someone who will try to take advantage of my narrow preflop raising range by stealing on raggedy middle flops, I'll start raising preflop with some of the stronger middle wrap type hands.

[niss]

In my opinion, calling pre-flop raises with certain middle card hands is absolutely a correct play if you are confident that the pre-flop raiser will play his hand poorly post-flop if you hit and his stack is deep enough. Two of the bigger pots I've won over the last few weeks were by calling pre-flop raises with 9-10-J-Q and 9-10-J-J.

[davebreal]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, calling pre-flop raises with certain middle card hands is absolutely a correct play if you are confident that the pre-flop raiser will play his hand poorly post-flop if you hit and his stack is deep enough. Two of the bigger pots I've won over the last few weeks were by calling pre-flop raises with 9-10-J-Q and 9-10-J-J.

[/ QUOTE ]

phone # for coaching purposes?

[facialabuse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, calling pre-flop raises with certain middle card hands is absolutely a correct play if you are confident that the pre-flop raiser will play his hand poorly post-flop if you hit and his stack is deep enough. Two of the bigger pots I've won over the last few weeks were by calling pre-flop raises with 9-10-J-Q and 9-10-J-J.

[/ QUOTE ]

phone # for coaching purposes?

[/ QUOTE ]

[niss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, calling pre-flop raises with certain middle card hands is absolutely a correct play if you are confident that the pre-flop raiser will play his hand poorly post-flop if you hit and his stack is deep enough. Two of the bigger pots I've won over the last few weeks were by calling pre-flop raises with 9-10-J-Q and 9-10-J-J.

[/ QUOTE ]

phone # for coaching purposes?

[/ QUOTE ]

201-BEL-OWME