Justify procreation, please.

[Philo]

[ QUOTE ]

As I posted in a previous thread, I doubt if anyone is truly happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must have a rather idiosyncratic notion of happiness.

[furyshade]

if we talk about a purely logical reason to procreate, it is a natural version of social security. if you have healthy kids, you guarantee that there will be someone to take care of you when you cant take care of yourself. there are other reasons but this is the emotionless version

[Phil153]

You have an awfully depressing view of life, RJT. I understand that you can't imagine purpose or positivity or meaningful morality without God, but that's your own failing, not anyone else's.

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But, why would one subjugate innocent children to a life of suffering that goes along with the joys in life?

[/ QUOTE ]
Put another way: why would subjugate innocent children to a life of joy that goes along with the suffering in life? See the difference that makes?

If you need God, fine. But I find your whole premise that life isn't worth living without God rather uncreative. I don't know how old you are, but I suggest spending some time around young people and having some fun - you might get a different perspective on how people can feel about life.

[Phil153]

And to answer your question, here's my justification:

I have faith that I can have a child who will be happy that he/she was born, who will have meaningful experiences and friendships, and who would rather be alive than not.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
And to answer your question, here's my justification:

I have faith that I can have a child who will be happy that he/she was born, who will have meaningful experiences and friendships, and who would rather be alive than not.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is a legitimate justification even if 50+1% of people are not "truly happy" or whatever RJT was saying.

[RJT]

This has nothing to do with depression. (For the record, I am probably in the prime of life and am enjoying it.)

The choice isn’t whether one would choose to have been born. (Other than suicidal folk, I doubt there are many would say no to it.)

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Life (while not the miracle you would claim it is), is the most precious thing attainable! So very rare. Healthy people who are able to experience life are truly fortunate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If life is the most precious thing attainable what is the second most precious thing?
Life isn’t attainable.
What about unhealthy people?


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Why wouldn't anyone want to give the gift of life?!!

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You are making a value judgment. You are imposing your views and deciding that any random child you beget should hold this view. What should be the consequences to you, if one of those children actually would have chosen not to be born? Who are you to put the onus them?

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Its moral to have children if its reasonable to believe that if they had been given a choice they would rather have been had than not had. That's a pretty reasonable thing for many to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want to re-read what you just wrote?

Now, regarding happiness. I suppose we should first define it – probably not possible. But, to me I find it hard to juxtapose theoretical happiness and posting on internet message boards. To me a truly happy person is not one who spends his time in such a manner. It just doesn’t ring true.

Asked another way – do you think that truly happy people pass time in the manner most of us do? Most of us have similar lives. We work, play poker, read, go to the movies, make love, have a nice dinner and drinks, whatever. Sure, we have good lives. Life is great. But, we do pass time. Happiness is not about passing time. I find it hard to include the words “passing time” in ny definitions of Happiness.

Maybe I am idealistic and hold the word up to a higher esteem than I should.

Getting back to my original point. Try not to get too pragmatic with it. This is a theoretical point. Empiricism has nothing to do with any of it.


[ QUOTE ]
If you need God, fine. But I find your whole premise that life isn't worth living without God rather uncreative. I don't know how old you are, but I suggest spending some time around young people and having some fun - you might get a different perspective on how people can feel about life.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, I shouldn’t have started with anything to do with God. Let me restate my point. “It is immoral to procreate.”

[RJT]

Guys, this is the Philosophy forum, not the Psychology forum.

[vhawk01]

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Guys, this is the Philosophy forum, not the Psychology forum.

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Ok, so as long as everyone is miserable all the time, and that the small joys they have in life <<<<< all the sorrow and pain (which is practically a certainty to be false due to the way the human psyche is structured, cognitive dissonance and all that) then its at least selfish. Not immoral, just selfish. Since of course, *I* get tons of joy out of having kids. Or at least I think I do.

[madnak]

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This is a theoretical point.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no point. You haven't presented any sort of dilemma. You've just rambled incoherently.

[bunny]

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If there is no God, then I postulate it is immoral to procreate. (Immoral is not the exact word, because given no God there really is no Absolute Morality. But, you get the idea.)

Having been born, I wouldn’t trade off, don’t get me wrong. But, why would one subjugate innocent children to a life of suffering that goes along with the joys in life? As I posted in a previous thread, I doubt if anyone is truly happy. (If I am wrong about that then, I must be wrong here. So, all you have to do is prove that happiness is possible.)

[/ QUOTE ]
I would subjugate an innocent child to the suffering of life if the joy was greater. I think you are wrong to suggest happiness is impossible - first counterexample, any atheist who is choosing to live rather than "end the suffering".