99 Deep stacked with Straate

smartalecc5 · #1 12-06-2006, 12:12 AM

Villain is obviously the one and only straate. I won one 100bb pot off him earlier w/o a showdown but otherwise we're not fighting or playing eachother excessively loose.
Turn play is debatable, but I think is ok. What am I supposed to think about on the river??

During my river and timebank, the following chat occurs:
Hero said, "straate"
Hero said, "i dont like this"
Hero said, "i think u got me"
straate said, "im bringin sexy baaack"
....

Does that change anything??

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($227.50)
UTG ($400)
MP ($379.75)
CO ($858.55)
Button ($312)
Hero ($1328.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises to $16, 1 fold, Hero calls $14, 1 fold.

Flop: ($36) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $24, Hero calls $24.

Turn: ($84) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $32, CO raises to $100, Hero calls $68.

River: ($284) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $190, Hero...

philipsaurus · #2 12-06-2006, 12:16 AM

why did you donk lead turn like that?

aejones · #3 12-06-2006, 12:16 AM

veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bet

aejones · #4 12-06-2006, 12:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why did you donk lead turn like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously I wanna know the same thing, i don't know that there's going to be any great explanation.

but as played, since oyu donked the turn, i feel like you have to call the river, and when you call the river, you're almost always behid.

Reef · #5 12-06-2006, 12:22 AM

what aejones said

efficacy · #6 12-06-2006, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i feel like you have to call the river, and when you call the river, you're almost always behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

So fold then. I don't get it.

TalentedTom · #7 12-06-2006, 12:49 AM

he had to call because he induced a bluff

aejones · #8 12-06-2006, 12:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i feel like you have to call the river, and when you call the river, you're almost always behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

So fold then. I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, not exactly. the thing is, you donk into him, you've got to want him to raise, right? no one is folding to a third of the pot- or at least that shouldn't be the intention of the bet. So then he raises, and to me it looks like a raise for value, liek a pretty strong pair. So when he raises, you call, and you call becuase you had to want him to raise, right? becuase you donked into him. you didn't CC and give him a chance to fire a second barrel, you gave him a chance to raise your donk bet, which was okay IF you wanted him to do that, so he's following in line with what oyu want him to do, right? still feels like for value to me. anyways, you get to the river, and he doesn't even fire full pot, and he's got to know about waht you have (prob weights to 77/88 actually) so he's got about TT/JJish, or a STRONG boat hand, and he's setting his price that you'll pay him.

and basically, you dug your own grave, becuase he's doing what you WANTED him to do, based on the design of your bet, but at the same time you're doing what he wants you to do. so, in my opinion, he pwned you. obv i could be wrong and straate could be throwing out some sick bluff, but my opinion is that he pwned you and he got paid and laid in the shade.

ya dig?

efficacy · #9 12-06-2006, 01:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ya dig?

[/ QUOTE ]

That explanation makes sense. The following two statements just don't jive:

1) you are behind almost every time on the river.
2) you have to call.

I think it is a decent plan on the turn, but shouldn't we be flexible enough to change our mind on the river?

aejones · #10 12-06-2006, 01:11 AM

efficacy, obviously what you're saying makes perfect sense.

however, you should know that this type of thinking is ridiculously exploitable. that is, all straate has to say is that "he will never donk into me with the nuts" (irrelevant if it's true or not). so now straate decides he's got EXACTLY what he's got, so he raises. he can raise equally because he's got the best hand, or becuase he knows op doesn't have the nuts, do you see? judging from this information, it would make this situation WAY WAY WAY too easy for straate to bluff (not to mention he's fairly aggressive). since it's too exploitable to let him bluff here AND you've induced it becuase it was your PLAN (which leads me to say that you should, well, have a better plan in the first place) you need to call to follow through on him doing what you wanted him to do.

however, if you REALLY just read the river bet size as "he always bets big as a bluff, and thsi EXACT size for value, i know becuase I've played thousands of hands with him, etc etc" THEN you can fold. as i said i thin kthe riv is prob for value based on size, BUT straate is a winning player assumedly and he's smart enough to switch up bet sizing on the river for value and for a bluff, therefore in theory you shoudl not be able to tell if he's bluffing or betting for value, i know i sure as hell don't give out info on that i'm consistent accross the board about bluffs and v bets on the end. so basically, folding on the river is inconsistent with the rest of the hand. ya dig?