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  #61  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:00 PM
pvn pvn is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
So what's everyone bitching about then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some combination of "smell brown people, I don't like them, they're probably going to rob me" and "THEY TOOK ARRR JERBS"?
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  #62  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:07 PM
Thug Bubbles Thug Bubbles is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

is there any discussion of reforming the path for legal citizenship?

Also, aside from security issues, is there truely any justifiable reason to dislike immigration? I ask people "Why should I want a random american whom i've never met have better opportunities than a random foreigner living in america whom i've never met?" I'm usually met with blank stares.
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  #63  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:10 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
So what's everyone bitching about then? I always assumed illegals didn't pay taxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. And of course its convenient to preted like they dont pay taxes so that we can kick them all out for other reasons.
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  #64  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:11 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what's everyone bitching about then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some combination of "smell brown people, I don't like them, they're probably going to rob me" and "THEY TOOK ARRR JERBS"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the problem is, at least some of the time, this last complaint is entirely true. So I get to suffer because some douchebag is (legitimately) afraid of being outcompeted. Sucks for me.
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  #65  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:34 PM
TomCollins TomCollins is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy was offered an out-of-sequence release by the North Vietnamese because his father was a relatively-famous commander in the Navy and he turned it down because he didn't think it was fair to get sent home before other less-well-connected POWs who had been imprisoned for longer were forced to stay; he was then mercilessly tortured because of the refusal to leave.

I suppose we can debate what it means to be a "hero" and the nobility of purpose of flying jets in Vietnam, but you jumping into the Grand Canyon != McCain being offered the chance to escape imprisonment and torture but refusing to do so because it violated a dearly held principle. Not that I would expect your typical ACist to actually understand any of this kind of nuance, or why someone would do something like experience terrible physical trauma because of fidelity to dearly held principles (I know, I know -- you and Nielsio and other ACtards have experienced the terrible pain and suffering that the jackbooted thuggery of state authority and their taxation, which has wrought terribly wretched and painful lives upon you, which can only be remedied by sacrificing enormous time and energy...by posting about it on an the intraweb and YouTube. That is umm, a little similar, but not exactly the same).

Anyway, I thought it important to point this out, just in case there were other people like gobbomom out there who thought you were funny but hadn't quite considered why your analogy was retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really want to read the truth about McCain rather than the BS that the MSM has put forth about him:

Be Afraid of President McCain
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  #66  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:43 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
If you really want to read the truth about McCain rather than the BS that the MSM has put forth about him:

Be Afraid of President McCain

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really understand what you're attempting to prove here; McCain's personal philosophy about the proper role of government isn't what's at question here. It's about the [censored] he endured in Vietnam and why he endured it and the way AlexM characterized it.

Recall what AlexM said, which gobbomom found just "hilarious":

[ QUOTE ]

"McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon"

[/ QUOTE ]

So does the following really = "jumping into the Grand Canyon"? From the article you linked to:

"So after being shot out of the sky during a risky raid over Hanoi in 1967, then pummeled by a mob of local Vietnamese and detained at the notorious prison nicknamed the Hanoi Hilton, McCain comported himself heroically despite two broken arms, a mangled knee, and innards wracked by dysentery and other maladies. Every morning for two years a guard the prisoners called The Prick would demand that McCain bow to him. Every morning McCain would refuse, then brace for his beating. Herded into a made-for-propaganda Christmas Eve service in the prison yard, McCain punctured the enforced silence with repeated shouts of “[censored] you!” while raising his middle finger to the camera. Beat senseless for days on end for refusing to divulge information or accept early release (which would have given the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory and violated the Navy’s honor code), he would reveal only the names of every player he could remember from the Green Bay Packers."


The guy had a dearly-held principle, and then got beat senseless and tortured for adhering to it. This is like jumping into the Grand Canyon how, exactly?
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  #67  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:43 PM
gobbomom gobbomom is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

I found it hilarious because heroism is completely subjective, as Alex so astutely pointed out. It's just as easy to consider McCain stupid as heroic in that example, because sometimes "dearly held principles" are just the ego's folly.
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  #68  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:59 PM
AlexM AlexM is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Imaginationland
Posts: 5,200
Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy was offered an out-of-sequence release by the North Vietnamese because his father was a relatively-famous commander in the Navy and he turned it down because he didn't think it was fair to get sent home before other less-well-connected POWs who had been imprisoned for longer were forced to stay; he was then mercilessly tortured because of the refusal to leave.

I suppose we can debate what it means to be a "hero" and the nobility of purpose of flying jets in Vietnam, but you jumping into the Grand Canyon != McCain being offered the chance to escape imprisonment and torture but refusing to do so because it violated a dearly held principle. Not that I would expect your typical ACist to actually understand any of this kind of nuance, or why someone would do something like experience terrible physical trauma because of fidelity to dearly held principles (I know, I know -- you and Nielsio and other ACtards have experienced the terrible pain and suffering that the jackbooted thuggery of state authority and their taxation, which has wrought terribly wretched and painful lives upon you, which can only be remedied by sacrificing enormous time and energy...by posting about it on an the intraweb and YouTube. That is umm, a little similar, but not exactly the same).

Anyway, I thought it important to point this out, just in case there were other people like gobbomom out there who thought you were funny but hadn't quite considered why your analogy was retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... jumping into the Grand Canyon = tremendously stupid decision

Willingly choosing to be stay imprisoned and be tortured = tremendously stupid decision

Seems like a good analogy to me!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a joke? Standing on principle with a consequence of personal harm is heroic by most standards, and in no way analogous to nonsensical self-mutilation.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the "principle" is dumb and pointless, then yes it's entirely analogous to nonsensical self-mutilation. If the Vietnamese were releasing people on some set schedule and him getting released early bumped everyone else back a slot, then him making this sacrifice would indeed be heroic, but how did what he did actually help anyone? It did't! Thus, it was just dumb. It's not standing on principle that's heroic, it's standing on heroic principles. This wasn't anything but dumb. And you know what? I really don't want a president who would willingly sacrifice our entire country a ridiculous code of "honor." That's what the Japanese did at the end of WWII and it was dumb then too, not heroic.
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  #69  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:04 PM
AlexM AlexM is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
The guy had a dearly-held principle, and then got beat senseless and tortured for adhering to it. This is like jumping into the Grand Canyon how, exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Kamikaze!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #70  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:05 PM
Moseley Moseley is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 394
Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
is there any discussion of reforming the path for legal citizenship?

Also, aside from security issues, is there truely any justifiable reason to dislike immigration? I ask people "Why should I want a random american whom i've never met have better opportunities than a random foreigner living in america whom i've never met?" I'm usually met with blank stares.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're just not genetically wired like most. For instance, most humans believe in a God, while those wired differently do not.
You probably do not have a "love for country" and deep appreciation of what our soldiers who died in WWII sacrificed.

There are many people like you. They do not see the U.S.A. as a country they love, but merely an opportunity. Their primary goal in life is to be a successful capitalist and giving to charity without self-benefit is looked upon by them with scorn.

Others are wired differently.

Your type of philosophy is what was needed in generals in the military during WWII....it was easier for them to send a bunch of random Americans into a battle knowing half of them would not come out alive.
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