Two QQ hands - Extracting value

[NIX]

It seems like over my last boatload of hands, I'm either winning small pots or losing big ones. In another thread, McGahee commented that I let a Villain off the hook in a hand by getting too agro with my big hand when it was heads up. While looking over some hands I've played recently, I think that may be a common theme for me. It seems like a lot of hands go like: I raise prelfop, guy donks the flop into me, I raise, he folds or I PFR, lead flop, he raises, I 3bet, he check/folds the turn.

With that in mind, I played these two QQ hands last night. I think both Villains have the ability to fold hands, so, did I play these well to potentially get reasonable value out of the hands, or am I just leaving money on the table?

Hand 1: Villain is 17/9/1.6 over 150 hands. I haven't seen him get out of line and I've seen him play a pretty predictable ABC TAG game.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, 3 folds, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8.5SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

I'd expect AJ to play this way as would another QQ, maybe JJ. Is this a missed river raise?


Hand 2: Villain is 26/18/2.6 over 57 hands. Has been agro, but not unreasonable postflop. Has also bet UI overs.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
7 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

I was also planning on raising a non-A/K river if he led again.

[marchron]

Hand 1 &gt; Hand 2, DUCY?

[NIX]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 &gt; Hand 2, DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]
I beat a whole lot more hands that can call down in Hand 2?

[marchron]

Correct.

Villain in Hand 1 is TAGgy, in fact he's very TAGgy at 17/9. His play preflop and on the flop suggest, for the most part, only two hands: JJ and AJ. QQ+ probably caps you preflop; lesser Jx hands probably don't raise preflop in the first place. Obviously card frequency suggests AJ is far likelier than JJ, but the more bets that go in, the likelier he is to have JJ and therefore the likelier it will be that you will lose all those bets. I don't think it's played perfectly; I'd three-bet the flop and call down only if he caps. But playing WA/WB isn't too bad here.

Hand 2's Villain is looser and more aggressive preflop, and you have a specific read that he'll stay on the gas with UI overs. Allowing him to set a price of 1 bet to see the turn and river is bad — you almost certainly have him beat.

[Bona]

Hand One: I think I would be feeling ahead but vulnerable on the turn so I might check raise the turn to see if I can buy it here and not have to sweat an A or K on the river.

Hand 2 is probably fine. One consideration might be a flop raise into that paired board but since your goal is to build the pot, I guess you accomplished that. (Overall though slow playing QQ is kind of dangerous in my mind.) Even HU. You can't think he has a four after his preflop action. The king is scary but I think I bet into it, as you did, anyway hoping he isn't check raising.

[BigBadBabar]

hand 1 i checkraise that turn all day long.
hand 2 i like your play except i may raise the turn anyway.

[Poker Gestalt]

**Grunch**

Hand one: When im in a situation like this i will usually c/r the turn and lead out on the river. I like this play especially on this board b/c the turn probably didnt help him and given his style of play i dont put him on any sort of draw on the flop. Becasue of this I believe he hit somehow, and will more likly bet this turn.

Unless he is on a total bluff he should call down. Any even if he is then you got the most $ you could from him.

Hand two: You have to raise the flop and see where your at. Your goal is to get the most money in yes but your playing blindfolded by not raising. Bet turn. Bet river unless villain told you otherwise on the flop or turn. Do to the fact that you didnt bet or raise every you have no way of knowing that the K has you beat when he checks the turn fearing your raise and then comes out betting river.

[MacGuyV]

Well I like the 2nd hand better (would likely put in 1 raise on the flop though). Giving the 1st guy JJ in hand 1 cause he's a Tag based on a flop raise I think is Mubs. Furthermore you're OOP, where fastplaying is never wrong; he's not folding a J. What I meant in that other hand was just: don't cap the flop with a monster HU when you have position; but that's not like a big leak or anything.

[Big Folder]

hand 1. If you are planning on waiting to raise the key word is "raise". Without even analyzing whether it was correct to call the flop and turn you have to raise somewhere otherwise there is no point in waiting.

Getting to the hand I 3-bet on the flop. If he has AJ he's not going to fold and he has outs to beat you. Thus, you should punish him with bets/raises. You're right, this is how AJ would play, but you have AJ beat and he's not going to fold TPTK especially to your flop 3-bet so raise. He probably won't fold a turn bet either so raise.

The way you played it though it would be very difficult to have a read on him. He could have KK/AA and decided to try and trap you on the flop after just calling your 3-bet preflop(unlikely though). He could have AJ, KJ, QJ, TT which you beat, but he's unlikely to fold. Raise.

Hand 2: this line is better because if he'll bet UI overs you want him to keep pumping. If you raise he might fold. Considering his 3-bet prelop and a bet out after you capped you could be crushed here to AA/KK but you could be way ahead of JJ, TT, 99 which would also play like this. Looks like WA/WB makes sense given his aggressive tendencies. If he bets the river I raise. You're likely good, but even if he has you beat he probably won't three bet thinking you hit something on the river or slowplayed him .

[Big Folder]

[ QUOTE ]
**Grunch**
Hand two: You have to raise the flop and see where your at. Your goal is to get the most money in yes but your playing blindfolded by not raising. Bet turn. Bet river unless villain told you otherwise on the flop or turn. Do to the fact that you didnt bet or raise every you have no way of knowing that the K has you beat when he checks the turn fearing your raise and then comes out betting river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if anyone would answer this for you, but raising just to see where you at is usually never correct. There is an old Miller thread about this. Basically raising for information is valuable only if that information is perfectly clear. Like "If i raise this guy and he 3-bets he likely has a monster because he's very passive." Given this guys wide ranges and aggressive post-flop play if you raise he and he 3-bet what exactly would that mean? If the information you're getting from the raise is inexact its probably not worth raising. Raising for information has value even in these inexact situations but usually you are raising for another reason and raising for info is just a side-benefit.

I'm guessing you also were thinking raising for value, implying that from your raise for info post. This makes sense since we are likely ahead here, but given the aggressiveness and the read of villian WA/WB line works great. He'll bet AQ, AJ here on the flop and turn and hope you fold. You call having him crushed. If he bets on the river you raise. If he checks anywhere you bet. This gets the max out of him since a raise on the flop might lead to a call then a turn fold if he does not improve. Also, if you are completely crushed here to AA/KK you'll lose the minimum. If you raise the flop he 3-bets you, but again what does that mean? he's aggressive enough to 3-bet with a lot more stuff than AA/KK so you'll probably call down. WA/WB looks great here: you win the most by causing him to stay to the river, but you lose the least since you won't raise until the river where a lot of players get nervous about 3-betting unless they have a big hand.