I feel like there should be an obvious play here

MrWookie · #1 09-01-2007, 10:32 PM

I've been at the table for 10 hands. Villain here is 50/20 over those ten hands. We tangled once before this in this hand:

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

CO: $98.50
Button: $54.80
SB: $39.50
BB: $100.00
UTG: $122.60
MP: $101.50

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls $0.50, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2.00) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, SB raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, SB calls $8.

Turn: ($26.00) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $87 (all in), SB calls $26.50 (all in).

Edit: I guess the converter missed the river, but it was the 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Final Pot: $79.00

Results:
SB shows 9c, Tc (a flush, Jack high).
Hero shows 5d, Qc (two pair, Queens and Fives).

So, now on to the hand in question.

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

BB: $100.00
UTG: $58.30
CO: $76.20
Button: $100.90
SB: $120.10

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls $1, CO raises to $4.50, Hero calls $4.50, SB calls $4, BB folds, UTG folds.

Flop: ($15.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, CO bets $15.50

This hand is much easier to play in limit.

Hoopster81 · #2 09-01-2007, 11:50 PM

reraise preflop for value/isolation

I'd call flop as played

MrWookie · #3 09-01-2007, 11:52 PM

What's your plan for the turn?

DeathDonkey · #4 09-02-2007, 01:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What's your plan for the turn?

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I'd make him fire big and probably lay it down. I dislike reraising preflop, I think coldcalling is standard here.

-DeathDonkey

Apanage · #5 09-03-2007, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your plan for the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd make him fire big and probably lay it down. I dislike reraising preflop, I think coldcalling is standard here.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe a dumb question but why is a cold call standard here?
I would make a 15 dollar raise.We have position,a great possibility of having the best hand, and yet we would be glad to get HU or taking it down without a fight(and even 50/20:s doesn´t call preflop reraises that much in my games).
Cold calling really feels like we´re playing for set value.

As played I would fold for a turn bet that is bigger than half the pot if a broadway falls.If it is under halfpot I put all my money in.And I also put all my money in if turn is a blank.

jstill · #6 09-03-2007, 08:38 PM

I think 3betting pre here is my tweener... im more likely to with the limpers extra money, mostly I think I do it just to expand my 3betting range... just calling here with TT or JJ feels too nitty but depends on the table a bit in my mind

I peel one street and fold to a reasonable turn bet as played

DeathDonkey · #7 09-03-2007, 09:00 PM

Apanage,

The reason is because if you reraise and you get called you will be against a range of hands that is favored over you (unless the guy is retarded) and that pretty much kills your implied odds, and you start to suffer from reverse implied odds (due to the fact that you won't know which overcards are scary, whether he just called your reraise with a bigger overpair etc.) whereas if you just call preflop you preserve your implied odds.

A practical example is this: many poor players will raise preflop with A9 and stack off on a 9 high flop but if you reraise them preflop they will always fold. This tells us we would prefer to play a smaller pot against a wider range of hands if they will make big mistakes postflop, and it also tells us that it may be profitable to reraise them preflop with a lot of hands with the intention of getting them to just fold preflop. The solution to this is to reraise them preflop with hands that will be very easy to play when you get called - monsters and total trash, and play a smaller pot or preserve your implied odds with an in-between hands, which TT certainly is.

jstill, my opponents would consider me to be a full fledged LAG and I just about never reraise TT or JJ preflop, I get around this problem by reraising them with a lot of worse hands from time to time, which is great for my image, and still allows me to dance carefully around troubling hands like these.

-DeathDonkey

Surf · #8 09-03-2007, 10:04 PM

DD's right on here.

Also, it's very very helpful to know how your opponent plays draws. Against many 50/20s i'm happy calling a PSB on a non-heart turn (even a J, Q, or K) because they'll barrel off a draw and slowplay big hands. Against an unknown I would fold to a turn 3/5+ pot bet.

WRT: 3betting TT/JJ pf
To make TT + JJ a favorable pf 3bet against a player's range we either need to have a maniacal image, or he has to be incredibly bad / overaggro. We waste the value of JJ/TT by turning it into a bluff, since we have to fold to a 4bet AI. If he's crazy enough that we are happy calling an AI that's a different story, but is also very rare.

Surf

Apanage · #9 09-05-2007, 07:18 PM

I understand the overall reasoning. But I still don´t get some parts.

*Doesn´t a preflop call mean that we´re folding the best hand a lot of times on turn after calling a big bet on flop (like in this hand, and we can hardly get a better flop)since we all agree to fold to a 3/5 pot bet or bigger.
*If it is good that the poor player will stack off on a 9 high flop with A9 I presume you´re saying that we are playing for set value. Since if we are going to take his A9 pair with our UI TT then we are risking to get stacked by JJ-AA.

I still feel like a raise preflop is better in this hand. If we were OOP or thought that there was a reasonable risk of getting 4-bet bluff preflop I would like a smooth call better.
But I´m new to NL so maybe I will see the light someday.

DeathDonkey · #10 09-05-2007, 09:08 PM

No we are not playing for set value. Yes we will get stacked by JJ-AA postflop sometimes. Let me put it this way, IF you get your stack in postflop I like your chances of winning A LOT better in a two bet pot than in a 3 bet pot (because when he calls your 3 bet you are playing against a range of hands you are not in good shape against).

Yes we will sometimes fold winners, there will be other hands where we will take very similar preflop and flop action and be floating or have a weak draw and take the pot away from our opponent - if we can never have a mid to big pair in our range in this spot it becomes a lot more difficult to steal those other hands. It's not a simple concept but I hope it makes sense that the value we lose when we fold a winner is mitigated by the times we steal a pot BECAUSE our opponent fears we have a hand like TT.

If you are coming from limit you are used to thinking "VALUETOWN" because when you reraise preflop your opponent has to call you for one more bet with his whole range. In NL you need to always consider the question "what will my opponent do with his entire range against my action and is that good or bad for me". If he will fold worse hands and call or 4 bet with better hands or coinflips there is probably a better way to play that hand that puts you in better position against his range.

-DeathDonkey