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  #1  
Old 08-11-2006, 05:55 PM
donger donger is offline
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Default ugly situation :/

Villain is a semi-tricky 30/20/1.5 type 36 WTSD
Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9.5SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.25BB, 2 players)

What should my plan be on the turn and can anyone find a fold here depending on the action?
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  #2  
Old 08-11-2006, 05:59 PM
SlyGuy SlyGuy is offline
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

I would bet call the turn and bet or check call the river depending on the turn action.
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  #3  
Old 08-11-2006, 06:48 PM
Mossberg Mossberg is offline
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet call the turn and bet or check call the river depending on the turn action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.. Doesn't seem like an ugly situation to me.
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  #4  
Old 08-11-2006, 06:51 PM
brettbrettr brettbrettr is offline
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

So this was ugly when the one card that changes nothing comes off on the turn or when he bet-called the flop?
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2006, 06:53 PM
madscratch madscratch is offline
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

The only fold I could find is if you're raised on the river after a 3rd club of spade hits the board. But it seems unlikely villain's has 2 suited cards. He may have the other A, in which case you're likely outkicked, but I'm going to showdown with our weak A.
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  #6  
Old 08-11-2006, 07:09 PM
Fiddler Fiddler is offline
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet call the turn and bet or check call the river depending on the turn action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.. Doesn't seem like an ugly situation to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why doesn't it look ugly to you? Villain though a bit LAG 3-bet pre and called two cold on the flop on an A high board. What do you put him on? K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? That is even less hands than the remaining 3-betting hands containing the last A.

I think my line after finding myself on the turn here would be to bet-fold myself to showdown and even if it wouldn't be it probably ought to be that line. But how about just calling the flop and see what happens? Peel if villain raises and see what happens on the turn. If BB 3-bets a raise get out.
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  #7  
Old 08-11-2006, 07:18 PM
Guruman Guruman is offline
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is a semi-tricky 30/20/1.5 type 36 WTSD
Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9.5SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.25BB, 2 players)

What should my plan be on the turn and can anyone find a fold here depending on the action?

[/ QUOTE ]

when a tricky 30vpip type calls two cold in that spot he's got a better ace than you or a flush draw almost 100% of the time. There may be a chance that he can't get away from black kings or queens, but I don't know how likely those hands are because of the passiveness of his flop play.

The difficulty in this hand is the fact that you're WB his ace range, but WA of his flush draw range. Since he'll take a free card some of the time when he's behind and drawing live, the correct looking play seems to be betting the turn.

You have the read here and I don't, but I imagine if he's tricky enough that he'll bet a flush draw if you check to him, allowing you to play the WA/WB line on the turn and donk a lot of safe rivers.

This is a 5bet pot, and if he has a flush draw his outs are tainted. He may bet the draw anyway. He'll definately raise his better aces. He'll probably raise some of his draws on the turn.

all this looks to add up to a check/call and donk the river IMO. If he checks through and catches a flush then so be it.
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  #8  
Old 08-11-2006, 07:43 PM
Mossberg Mossberg is offline
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet call the turn and bet or check call the river depending on the turn action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.. Doesn't seem like an ugly situation to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why doesn't it look ugly to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just think it looks fairly straightforward. We raise the flop to represent the ace.. I think from here on, we can be fairly sure that he is only raising us with a better ace. I suppose the possibility remains that he could raise us on the turn with a big PP when he sees that other ace fall and assumes it's less likely that we have it. Anyways, I think the turn is an easy B/C, and we still have outs and can re-evaluate on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
all this looks to add up to a check/call and donk the river IMO. If he checks through and catches a flush then so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this too for the reasons you mentioned.. I think this and the line I was defending are quite close still.
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  #9  
Old 08-11-2006, 08:37 PM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

bet and showdown vs a raise.
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  #10  
Old 08-11-2006, 11:44 PM
Guruman Guruman is offline
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Location: still a NL fish - so lay off!
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Default Re: ugly situation :/

actually the more I think about it, the more I dislike bet/calling the turn.

If he's aggro enough to raise worse hands on that turn you should absolutely check and let him do all of the heavy lifting. If he's not then you should fold to any turn raises.

It just seems like betting allows him to play very perfectly - raising all of his better hands, calling his draws most of the time, and folding when he has an unimproved PP. Checking can cause all kinds of mistakes though - like betting worse aces, betting pocket pairs, betting flush draws, and inducing (and calling) river bluffs with worse hands.

this is looking pretty clear to me.
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