Crossfit FAQ

[Thremp]

J. Brown,

Yeah, I don't believe kipping is a different movement entirely. If I call a cheat curl different from a curl or a push press different from a military press... It doesn't make it so. It makes me retarded.

Their logic for kipping pull-ups can be applied to a wide variety of movements which they don't. I think its kind of asinine to make the argument for one rather than another. On one hand you have a guy doing hang cleans and on the other you have a guy doing full body spasms while looking over an imaginary ledge with a pseudo rocking motion or frog kick.

Muscle ups... I'll go with that. Seems to be solid. I can see some practical use for that. I did try to do a dead hang one once... Learned that I'd probably have to become muscle up master to have a prayer. But that seems a bit more practical for climbing things. Getting out of a lake onto a dock, climbing onto things, etc.

My last comment. If I am not mistaken regular kipping pull up technique has you rock forward and backward... How do this translate to wall climbing. I am am not mistaken, wouldn't the wall block climbing. I don't see why they just don't get a wall and make people climb it for "functionality". To me the functional argument is weak and strained much like the "power output argument".

[Colt McCoy]

I'm going to agree and disagree with both Thremp and J.Brown on this I think, if I'm following the debate correctly.

I disagree with Thremp in that I think cheat movements are extremely useful, and are helpful in teaching the body to work as a whole to generate power. I think "cheat" movements are not just cheating on a movement, but that the "cheat" is a skill in itself that can be learned and improved on. The "cheat" is the body transferring power from the legs and hips. The reason I don't think a cheat curl is just a curl with cheating is because when I do a push press versus a standard overhead press, my objectives are completely different. In one I'm trying to develop shoulder muscles. In the other I'm training my muscles and nervous system to work together in a certain way.

The pullup kip, however, I don't view the same way. I used to bang out dozens of pullups at a time using a pretty good kip I developed. Kipping is a skill, but not a really useful one in my opinion unless your goal is just to do a lot of pullups. I've probably known dozens of people that tried and tried but could never really learn to kip. The problem is that when you kip, you're obviously not working your back and arms the way you would otherwise. And as Thremp said, I really can't think of any functional movement where a kip would be helpful. It's NOT the same hip snap used to generate power in o-lifts or when throwing a punch. It's a kind of unique movement that I don't see translating to other movements.

[shemp]

I don't know much about weightlifting.

But a push-press is a different exercise than a military press. This is unaffected by someone untrained or tired cheating at a military press by recruiting the lower body in the fashion of a push-press. So I do not accept that a push-press is to a military press as cheat curl is to curl.

Secondly, the crossfit total is a simple metric for strength utilizing a lower body push, an upper body push, and a total body pull-- and your complaint is that if they really believed in functional strength it would be a lower body push, a total body push, and a total body pull? I'm assuming you see the absurdity of your position by how I've phrased the question. Also, you've latched onto a form of argument that is merely annoying in an adolescent.

As for kipping pull-ups, I'm prepared to believe that they have significant empirical evidence to support the position that kipping helps more people gain more strength quicker than dead-hangs and that people with small to mid dead-hang numbers show great improvement in their dead-hang numbers by kipping-- I accept it because of all the chicks doing 15+ kipping pull-ups and all the testimonials from people who started at zero who can now get 20+ kipping and ~10 dead hang. Someone with a high deadhang number probably isn't gonna get any boost from kipping instead requiring specificity, but he won't lose his deadhangs and will be able to crank through workouts with a higher output of power by adding the athletic/gymnastic kip to his arsenal-- as well as take a stepon a progression to various gymnastic movements.

I could go on, but as I said, I'm even more ignorant about weightlifting/fitness that I am about so many other things.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
As for kipping pull-ups, I'm prepared to believe that they have significant empirical evidence to support the position that kipping helps more people gain more strength quicker than dead-hangs and that people with small to mid dead-hang numbers show great improvement in their dead-hang numbers by kipping-- I accept it because of all the chicks doing 15+ kipping pull-ups and all the testimonials from people who started at zero who can now get 20+ kipping and ~10 dead hang. Someone with a high deadhang number probably isn't gonna get any boost from kipping instead requiring specificity, but he won't lose his deadhangs and will be able to crank through workouts with a higher output of power by adding the athletic/gymnastic kip to his arsenal-- as well as take a stepon a progression to various gymnastic movements.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really doesn't prove the improvement in dead hang pullups is due to the kipping, but I'm sure it helps some. Starting from zero, initially all you want to do is get over the bar. If you haven't done pullups in forever, and do a few sets kipping, you'll feel it in your lats the next day so it certainly still works the muscle. But again that's in an untrained (or out of shape) individual.

[Thremp]

shemp,

Most likely the improvement is due to less intensity and higher volume since kipping pushes work off the arms and back. You are never going to significantly increase volume of pull-ups if you continue to do the same number each week. But testimonials are worthless as we all know... So whatev.

Umm... A push press is just a military press with leg drive. Lets not try to church it up. Its not as skill specific as kipping. Push Press/Military Press and Curl/Cheat Curl is much closer than anything is with Kipping PU/PU.

Your argument and name calling about the Crossfit Total is pedantic and tired. They emphasize as some of their main tenets full body coordination but do not test it in their weight lifting total? I mean its a very simple modification. Actually why would they have people doing strict military presses at all, when a easy to implement variant is available that is more in line with their tenets. Also, what is a lower body push? How is it different from a lower body pull? Who uses these terms? I will ridicule them next.

Colt,

I'll go with you on that. I use cheat movements for a variety of things. Sometimes when I don't want to take the load off or don't want to chop ROM for certain exercises. There are a significant number of exercises that blur the lines between a cheat exercise and one that just coordinates the whole body.

[shemp]

I'm not trying to prove anything. I offered what I have gleaned to be their position: that empirically they have seen greater and faster improvement in fitness through the use of kipping. And I take them to be reliable relating their experience on this point.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to prove anything. I offered what I have gleaned to be their position: that empirically they have seen greater and faster improvement in fitness through the use of kipping. And I take them to be reliable relating their experience on this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've literally trained hundreds of people in pullups and kipping. The thing is if they're really serious about increasing their pullups, they're not just doing kipping. I'm sure they're doing a number of other things that probably have just as much impact on their deadhang numbers. Just that just because they're taking a crap every day as their numbers increase doesn't mean it's <u>because</u> they crap.

[shemp]

I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me. I'm trying to tell you what I've gathered to be the rationale of Crossfit for its preaching the use of kipping pull-ups.

[shemp]

"They emphasize as some of their main tenets full body coordination but do not test it in their weight lifting total?"

The dead lift is a full body movement. It is expected to be easily the largest single component of anyone's total.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
"They emphasize as some of their main tenets full body coordination but do not test it in their weight lifting total?"

The dead lift is a full body movement. It is expected to be easily the largest single component of anyone's total.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. Good so they got one right. Back to the military press. Why would you eschew one of your tenets when doing a benchmark that should be representative of your training?

Its like a powerlifter bragging about his reverse hyper numbers (barring Westside degens) instead of focusing on his DL/Squat numbers. It seems to be a piece of a whole instead of the entire thing.

My main problem with Crossfit is 1) the absurdity of some of their stances 2) their exclusion of other methods of thought 3) their lack of consistency within their own dogma.