possibly standard 1-2 hand @ bellagio

[Custer]

"Two reasons:

1. There is no guarantee the turn will get bet, especially when you happen to have the best hand.

2. You can fade a raise on the flop easily because it could just be a flush draw, and you have more equity on the flop against the various hands that beat you.

But if you raise the turn a 3-bet is very uncomfortable.

3. Raising the turn and then betting the river makes it easier for your opponents to make good laydowns against you. If you raise the flop your distribution is much much heavier in draws than if you raise the turn.

And as for the OP I think he played the hand perfectly. "

1. This is a good point. In fact, in the hand in question, hero got to raise both streets with the best hand.

2. This is poppycock. The fact that "you can fade a raise" because you don't know what it means, is an arguement against raising the flop, not an arguement for it.

I don't see why a turn 3 bet is uncomfortable. Its a 4 way pot in a live game and you have top pair medium kicker. If the turn gets 3 bet, your hand is no good, and you are likely drawing very, very thin.

3. It also occasionally has them mucking K8, which makes up for a lot of T8 folds. It also has them folding A3, after they put a bet in on the turn. This is very good for you.

[Micturition Man]

[ QUOTE ]
"Two reasons:

1. There is no guarantee the turn will get bet, especially when you happen to have the best hand.

2. You can fade a raise on the flop easily because it could just be a flush draw, and you have more equity on the flop against the various hands that beat you.

But if you raise the turn a 3-bet is very uncomfortable.

3. Raising the turn and then betting the river makes it easier for your opponents to make good laydowns against you. If you raise the flop your distribution is much much heavier in draws than if you raise the turn.

And as for the OP I think he played the hand perfectly. "

1. This is a good point. In fact, in the hand in question, hero got to raise both streets with the best hand.

2. This is poppycock. The fact that "you can fade a raise" because you don't know what it means, is an arguement against raising the flop, not an arguement for it.

I don't see why a turn 3 bet is uncomfortable. Its a 4 way pot in a live game and you have top pair medium kicker. If the turn gets 3 bet, your hand is no good, and you are likely drawing very, very thin.

3. It also occasionally has them mucking K8, which makes up for a lot of T8 folds. It also has them folding A3, after they put a bet in on the turn. This is very good for you.

[/ QUOTE ]


Point 2:

No, it's not poppycock. It's a perfectly valid observation that you are in much better shape versus a flop 3-bettor than a turn 3-bettor, which tends to make the flop raise more profitable (ignoring the fact the bet is 1/2 the size).

Yes you can muck the turn to a 3-bet but that means you will have in effect wasted a big bet without getting to see the river. And your fold can easily be FTOP incorrect if have 6 outs.

On point 3:

You're really reaching there with the accidental bluff idea, and people aren't going to bet-fold A3 on the turn.

--

There is a reasonable case for smooth-calling the flop, which would be based either on the read that the lead bettor tends to bet quite strong, or that you are very confident someone has a flush draw.

But whoever was suggesting raising the turn seemed to be thinking of it more as a simple value slowplay, which is just not a good idea with a hand like this.

There is another point that I didn't mention btw, which is that a lot of scare cards can come on the turn that make a value raise too thin, but would not make you regret having raised the flop.

[siegfriedandroy]

Interesting points. What do you think would have to be different to make this a good free sd raise? Seems to be a pretty standard spot to make this play (although the play itself is controversial to some).

Also, this seems similar to the SSHE concept of sometimes waiting till the turn when your equity could change significantly. I dont mind this play here, but I dont think raising the flop is bad either. Seems close and perhaps not all that significant.

[AlexSem]

No one has mentioned reverse implied odds - and that is a mistake.

I'd wait till turn.