I totally out of character play against 2+2er in Shooting Star

[Josh.]

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What hands take Soss's line here with a call that aren't beating AA? AK only I think. What hands can 3bet here? I think all sets and all air. Sure Soss will have air a minimal % of the time, but stacks are definetly deep enough to not be discounting this. By calling, I feel you can discount everything but AK+.

I think we are arguing about something that contains variables not known to us nor ever will. Table flow/dynamics, and small idiosyncracies that have occurred will/can sway this one way or the other. I am not so set on either way to play it. Those who advocate calling the flop have plenty of merit and good points. One thing I do stand by is that if we do just call, we should not be betting either turn nor river. Inducing a bet is best way to get one.

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right, and what i'm trying to say is that most people are not comfortable getting it in with AA or AK (especially AK which is more likely anyway), so he can bluff here even if soss has a strong range (which will sometimes include stubborn QQ's, 87s w bdfd, etc)

what is NEVER happening with no history is villain 4-bet bluffs the flop. and it feels tricky when you get AA to call but if he's stackign off after you 3-bet the flop, but you get as much or more when you start checking and calling

defintely agree that checking the river if he checks the turn is the only way to play it.

[shaundeeb]

josh has nailed this thread really well and what he says def is the best line joe plays really well and you need to let him think he's ahead till the last point you put the rest of your chips in.

[jlocdog]

Josh,

My point on 3betting flop was not to induce a 4bet. That will never happen. I think we can both agree that Soss is probably getting one more bet AT MOST outta Locutus (unles a card comes off the turn that makes Locutus feel like he definetly has the best hand, i.e the nuts). So my point on 3betting the flop was only to hopefully make LOCUTUS STUBBORNLY CALL, NOT SOSS'. If Locutus has AK or a set, he cery well may call the 3bet and evaluate (most likely dump) the turn. If this happens, this line can be viewed as a success since we accomplished getting more outta him. Now Soss can check turn knowing Locutus will check as well. With this line, Soss can bet small on river as well and pray for a second bet outta locutus.

Again though, in my original post I did say calling flop raise, and checking turn AND river was probably the best line. Your analysis is spot on for why I believe that to be a good line here. 3betting the flop was just a posible second line thought. ANY other line I feel is inferior to these two. Nice discussion.

[Eagles]

My thoughts
1. His flop bet size is fine live people bet 1/2 pot and stuff way more live it's pretty standard fwiw.
2.I don't like call donk turn for a few reasons. If he has air it lets him fold but he will fire a second barrel here frequently with air. Also if He as AA/AK he will probably call turn and then we fire the river and he'll probably be able to find a river fold. Also if he checks behind the turn I would definetely go for a river c/r because almost every hand he calls a river bet with he needs to bet for value.

[SossMan]

everyone...

sorry it took so long to get back to this thread...I forgot that I posted it.

good insights here.

Joe knew me...he introduced himself to me after our first encounter. I have a terrible memory of 2+2r styles of play, but for some reason, I put him on being a value monkey and I know that he made it deep in a PCA event. That being said, he probably knows that I don't like to fold, so I was pretty sure that he was going to continue betting w/ AA/AK once he raised me on the flop and wasn't going to put another dime in unless he setted up if he was testing me on the K high flop w/ something like TT-QQ.

His bet looked fairly confident, so I was pretty sure he had a good hand. I was hoping it was 33/99 and not AA/AK. Since I'm getting a ton of chips from 33/99 pretty much no matter what the turn/river cards are, I wanted to maximize what I got when he had AK/AA.

I assumed that he would be able to get off AK/AA if I 3 bet on the flop, so I just called.

I checked dark on the turn, trying to sell QQ or AK trying to get to a cheap showdown.

He bet something like 2700 on the turn blank. Again, I was tying to sell AK/QQ and the turn bet was small enough that I probably would have called with both those hands.

I hollywooded a little (sorry Joe) and took about 45 seconds before calling and immediately checking dark on the river (I never do this, I don't really know why I thought of it now...but there really weren't many hands that would change the relative value of AK or AA. No likely str8 draws, no flush draw. I really wanted to sell that I was trying to get to showdown cheaply so that he would value bet the river.

River was the somewhat disapointing Q. He value bet 3500 or so and I made it 11k.

He folded fairly quickly. He later told me it was AK.