The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?

[Lagtastic]

if i show the winning hand opponents can much-----fine. but what gets me is this:

the river gets checked down when its HU and i have position. the guy who is first to act must have missed a draw and just says "i muck" or "i fold" or whatever. Im gonna ask to see his cards everytime before i even show my hand. I dont think that is out of line, but i feel like alot of people do. the way i see it is, i show my cards in order when its time for a showdown. i dunno, a lil off topic but it bothers me

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
if i show the winning hand opponents can much-----fine. but what gets me is this:

the river gets checked down when its HU and i have position. the guy who is first to act must have missed a draw and just says "i muck" or "i fold" or whatever. Im gonna ask to see his cards everytime before i even show my hand. I dont think that is out of line, but i feel like alot of people do. the way i see it is, i show my cards in order when its time for a showdown. i dunno, a lil off topic but it bothers me

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Please read this:

http://twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue35/angelo1107.html

[Lagtastic]

my work filter blocks this post for some reason, wanna give me the gist?

[PantsOnFire]

I feel it is bad ettiquette to invoke a rule for a reason other than the integrity of the game.

Players invoke this rule often not for the reason the rule is in place, which is to prevent cheating, but for their own personal reasons such as gaining information about how someone played a hand or simply out of curiosity.

And I honestly believe most of these players feel it is perfectly fine to ask to see such a hand. As a matter of fact, if most players either feel this way now or the majority end up feeling this way, then it may just become "fine" to do this.

I am in the other camp however. To pass on my opinion on this matter, I will usually ask the player why they are accusing me of cheating. They usually don't know why I am asking them that so I inform them. I might get the floor involved if the player is completely unreceptive to my suggestions. Depending on how all this turns out I may go on about Robert's Rules, being a gentleman, etc.

Spread the word and stomp out this disgusting practice of asking to see a mucked hand.

[KenProspero]

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread.

Player A shows his cards to Player B before mucking at the showdown. I assume there's no ettiquite breach in asking to see A's cards under "Show One - Show All?"

[dtf13]

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It's bad ettiquite to ask the loser to see their hand. Don't do it. The only reason you should ever do it is if you believe there is collusion at the table. This is the original intent of the rule.

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[danb2001]

Unfortunately, the rule according to the floor at my main card room is that anyone dealt in the hand can ask to see anyone's cards at showdown, whether or not anyone suspects cheating. Certain regulars do it every time like clockwork. It used to put me on tilt when it happened to me, but I've adapted. Anyone else play somewhere where the floor is so loose and accepting of this rule?

[Poshua]

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Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread.

Player A shows his cards to Player B before mucking at the showdown. I assume there's no ettiquite breach in asking to see A's cards under "Show One - Show All?"

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Yes, this is fine, because the rationale behind each rule is different. SOSA exists so that information shared is equally available to all players. IWTSTH, by contrast, is a measure to protect game integrity; as such, when you invoke it, you are accusing another player of colluding.

That said, while it's not an ettiquette breach to invoke SOSA, often the biggest SOSA offenders are very casual poker players, and I think it can be -EV to bother them about it.

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
the river gets checked down when its HU and i have position. the guy who is first to act must have missed a draw and just says "i muck" or "i fold" or whatever. Im gonna ask to see his cards everytime before i even show my hand. I dont think that is out of line, but i feel like alot of people do. the way i see it is, i show my cards in order when its time for a showdown. i dunno, a lil off topic but it bothers me

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Why not just say, "okay, then, muck your hand" and take the pot without a showdown? You're setting yourself up to get beat by a backdoor draw the mucker didn't notice.

People get way too worked up over this on all sides. Okay, yeah, the rule was initially for collusion, but obviously nobody uses it that way these days, so don't get all up in arms that someone's thinking you're cheating. Not like anybody who's asking is going to get any useful information out of it.


Don't ask to see mucked hands, period. Don't get annoyed by those who do, period.

[Mr Rick]

After going many many sessions without seeing this rule invoked, a guy asked to see my losing hand on the river. I was already pissed that I had lost after flopping a set - and now I resented having to show the table how I play my sets. So I asked him if he was accusing me of cheating. He said no - and the dealer turned the cards over anyway.

I ended up getting the dealer mad about my comments about how innapropriate invoking IWTSTH is to satisfy curiosity. However, the dealer did tell the player that he was not allowed to invoke the rule again. The Floor also reiterated that.

Unfortunately the floodgates were opened and two more IWTSTH requests were made - though not by the same guy.

I am currently looking to get Foxwoods to change their policy which no Floor to my knowledge likes anyway. I would like to see a player have to state that he suspects collusion in order to see a mucked hand on the river.