Wynn daily tournaments

[pig4bill]

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What is the sat structure for the $110? (Starting chip count blind levels and minutes per level. 2 hours on a single table is very good.

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Dunno, that's why I mentioned how long they run. I've played in ones that had 3 or 4 bad players that only took 90 minutes. They are better than the WSOP STT's, which is my main point of comparison.

[bav]

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Beyond that if you analyse the structures of the rest of the Vegas Tournaments (Good ones)you will find the rest of them almost identical and the Venetian Noon event has the best value. The following events will give you the same amount of play

Caesars $291+$39 Noon Friday-Sunday
Wynn $291+$39 Noon Tuesday-Thursday
Wynn $475+$55 Noon Friday
Bellagio $970+$90 2pm Friday and Saturday
Venetian $120+$30 Noon Sunday to Friday
Treasure Island $100+$25 7pm Saturday and 11am Wednesday


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I don't disagree that V has the best tourney structures for the dollar right now. But I can't lump the likes of TI's Saturday event in with Wynn's as being "almost identical". Yes, they both start with 5000 chips, but that's the end of the similarity. TI's runs way faster. There's a reason a Wynn tourney can last 8 hours but the TI events are over much sooner. Here's a graph of the sum total of the blinds+antes by time.

[tribet]

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I don't disagree that V has the best tourney structures for the dollar right now. But I can't lump the likes of TI's Saturday event in with Wynn's as being "almost identical". Yes, they both start with 5000 chips, but that's the end of the similarity. TI's runs way faster. There's a reason a Wynn tourney can last 8 hours but the TI events are over much sooner. Here's a graph of the sum total of the blinds+antes by time.


Wow thanks for pointing this out. I made a big error when I computed the Wynn structure and I am fixing this. in fact the Wynn does offer the second best structure and is better than the Caesars offering which has a identical buy in. Im not sure if you are familiar with the system i developed (PTES) and when i went back and recrunched the numbers the 2 hour M comes out like this. The higher the 2 hour M the slower the structue

Venetian $500+$50 17
Wynn All 13
Caesars $291+$39 8
Bellagio $970+$90 7
Venetian $120+$30 7
TI $100+$25 6
Binions $170+$30 6
Caesars $165+$35 5

It certainly appears that if a player wants to spend around $300 to enter a tourney the Wynn offers the best value for the money.

[bav]

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Im not sure if you are familiar with the system i developed (PTES) and when i went back and recrunched the numbers the 2 hour M comes out like this.

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I was not familiar with it, but a quick Google and now I am. Looks remarkably like Snyder's approach, and Herrington's, and, well... just about everybody else who has ever given any thought to tourney structures. My own "simple formulaic evaluation" I've used over the years is to look at when the blinds+antes per round will reach the original buy-in amount, and at what point the blinds will hit 5% of the sum total of chips in play given a "normal" sized field. I like Snyder's approach pretty well, also, but it's a bit more time consuming to compute.

One thing I dislike about all of these "formulas" is it tends to generate a single number which tries to tell all, and that doesn't always tell the story. Some tourneys are really bad about starting out with a nice structure, and then going insane in the later stages with the blinds doubling (or more) each and every round. Some tourneys double the blinds early on each round, and then slack off once the blinds reach a reasonable size (25/50, 50/100, 100/200, 200/400 is a pretty common start, but then most tourneys have mercy and head into 1.5x sorta blind increases each round instead of 2x, but some are more merciful than others).

So I like graphs, myself. MUCH easier to get the whole picture. Long as you're punching in most of the blind structure to compute Snyder's patience factor, might as well just graph it, too.

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I think there are many differences between Snyders aproach and mine. The first is simplicity in that you can evaluate an unfamiliar tournament quicky and without the need to use a computer. The second is the M can be used to structure your play and I don't have a lot of use for a skill level number. The M calculation is also superior to BB calculations especially when the antes are in play. I assume when you mention Harrington you are talking about his explanation of M in end game play as im unaware of any other information he presented on Tournament structure.

Having said that, I totally agree with the concept of graphing the entire tournament as this is the only way to see the whole picture.

[bav]

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I assume when you mention Harrington you are talking about his explanation of M in end game play as im unaware of any other information he presented on Tournament structure.

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Yeah, his basic M computation of computing blinds+antes vs chip stack.

Guess I consider all of these things pretty obvious. Just about every engineer I know who played poker much prior to the explosion of poker literature independently came up with some similar variant of these basic computations. Eons ago I was contemplating WSOP main event play and had graphed a blinds+antes vs time curve, and a blinds+antes consumed assuming 30 hands per hour vs time curve, and computed how long you could last if you just folded every hand--the latter EXACTLY what Snyder does--and when I showed it to poker playing techie friends I found I was not the first in that little group to do it. But Snyder wrote a book and popularized it. Harrington wrote a book and codified M computations. Perhaps most of the bleating masses had never given these things much thought prior to that.

But I do appreciate folks doing the number crunching for me and publishing whatever values they come up with to evaluate tourneys. AVP's simple list of buyins, blinds, and time per level are life savers (it'd be sweet if they'd do a little computation for us...just punch those numbers into a spreadsheet and tell us what Snyder's PF is or the PTES or whatever). Snyder's web page is always a little outta date, but it's still wunnerful for those tourneys that he has the right structure for.

I've been contemplating myself scribbling out some code to let me just cut/paste AVP's blind structures in and have it spit out graphs and computed magic numbers, but haven't gotten to it (I kinda got burned out on tourneys last WSOP season and have probably only played like 6 of 'em since July, so I gotta get back into playing tourneys more to get remotivated).

[tribet]

After posting about the Venetian having the best structure i called to check the structure at the Wynn and was told that now they have changed to 5000 chips 45 Minute levels and structure of 25/50 50/100 75/150 100/200 100/200 +25.
If this data is correct the Wynn Tourneys have the best structure and the weekday $291 +$39 is also the best value event offered in Las Vegas at this time. Can anyone confirm this information?