The Asshat Parents Thread

[Leaky Eye]

I would imagine there are different categories of private schools, and lumping them together makes little sense. I went to a selective college prep school, and they had PHDs by the bunches and teachers that were actually accomplished in their field. Frankly, a lot of the classes I took there were better than similar classes in college.

[guids]

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Do schools like this consistently have better teachers than public schools?

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the private schools would say they do, but i don't think it's true.

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Private and wealthy public schools get way, way more applicants for their openings. I'm pretty sure they pull better teachers out of that pool.

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I went to a private (catholic) high school with a pretty solid reputation.

Basically a majority of our teachers were people who retired from the public school system. A lot of the public schools offered incentives for teachers to retire early which they jumped at and then came over to my school to keep teaching. That way the school would say they pick the best teachers with the most experience. I'd say a majority of the teaching staff had over 20 years experience.

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same situation here, although most of the teachers taught in private schools for 20+/were ex military/or were brothers. You either have to deal with whiny, overbearing parents, or go to a public school.

[Howard Treesong]

At my elder daughter's school in Los Angeles, there was a parking lot that cars pulled into to wait for dismissal; about ten minutes prior, the line would get rather long. Until I read your post, guids, I'd forgotten about the asshat coparent who asked at orientation "Has the school done an environmental study on the health effects to the students of having cars run their engines in the waiting line?" I quipped in a voice just loud enough to hear, to Mrs. Treesong "does that man have a life?" I earned a pretty good laugh from about 1/3 of the audience, scowls from about half, and a swift, hard kick from Mrs. T.

[supafrey]

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At my elder daughter's school in Los Angeles, there was a parking lot that cars pulled into to wait for dismissal; about ten minutes prior, the line would get rather long. Until I read your post, guids, I'd forgotten about the asshat coparent who asked at orientation "Has the school done an environmental study on the health effects to the students of having cars run their engines in the waiting line?" I quipped in a voice just loud enough to hear, to Mrs. Treesong "does that man have a life?" I earned a pretty good laugh from about 1/3 of the audience, scowls from about half, and a swift, hard kick from Mrs. T.

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Wait - so the point of your story is that you, in fact, are an asshat?

Idling engines do a dropkick on the environment that's exponentially worse than a moving vehicle. A simple sign saying "please don't idle your car" would actually do wonders (a more reasonable suggestion than the 'study' obv)for both the world around you and the kids lining up breathing in exhaust.

[Howard Treesong]

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At my elder daughter's school in Los Angeles, there was a parking lot that cars pulled into to wait for dismissal; about ten minutes prior, the line would get rather long. Until I read your post, guids, I'd forgotten about the asshat coparent who asked at orientation "Has the school done an environmental study on the health effects to the students of having cars run their engines in the waiting line?" I quipped in a voice just loud enough to hear, to Mrs. Treesong "does that man have a life?" I earned a pretty good laugh from about 1/3 of the audience, scowls from about half, and a swift, hard kick from Mrs. T.

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Wait - so the point of your story is that you, in fact, are an asshat?

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Asshat I may be, but not on this point. Anyone who had so much as looked once at the area in question would realize that the children were inside, fully protected from lethal pooling clouds of exhaust, while the queue was waiting. Once kids start coming outside, the line is necessarily moving, which in turn requires engines and therefore exhaust. Moreover, the question wasn't directed to air quality issues in the LA basin, but rather to the specific danger posed to children. The man was a pedantic asshat.

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Idling engines do a dropkick on the environment that's exponentially worse than a moving vehicle.

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How does the relative velocity of exhaust impact its effect on the environment? The only reason idling is lame is because you don't get useful motion in trade for the exhaust costs. Yes, of course it's bad for the environment for people to leave cars idling at length, but that point has absolutely nothing to do with the question the man asked.

[jjp]

Private schools really need to be separated into two groups, religious and non-religious.

I am a Parent Board member for a So Cal religious elementary school. My sister was briefly a teacher and my best friend's mother has been a principal at a different religious elementary school for 25+ years, so I know a lot about what goes on with the faculty.

Most teachers are credentialed, although not all of them. Some are hired while they are getting their credential. My sister was one of these. She had a Masters in Education (and an undergraduate degree from UCLA), but she was not considered "credentialed" because she didn't have 2 or 3 specific courses. She was hired under the provision that she work toward the credential. She eventually left because she couldn't live the way she wanted to on a private school salary.

Teachers at religious private schools get paid peanuts. At the high school level, it is more on par with public schools, but it is still less. Most of them do it because they love teaching kids who want to learn. The parents send their kids there because they want a good (and religious) education. You can get just as good an education or better at a public school, but you often have to deal with public school problems. Private schools have the ability to kick out kids, and thus don't have as many disciplinary problems. Teachers are willing to accept less money to teach in this environment. There are still asshat parents, but generally the ones that want to use their money to throw their weight around go to the schools that are $30,000 per year, not $3,000 - $6,000 per year for the religious schools.

As for schools that are hiring completely unqualified teachers, that will come out when the school goes through its accreditation. The Western Association of Schools and Colleges gives an accreditation to schools every 5 years or so in California. If a school is not accredited, buyer beware.

Teachers normally do not get fired for giving B's instead of A's. Teachers get fired for not being good teachers.

The best teachers sometimes get pulled away to more wealthy private schools. Even among religious schools, the "elite" high schools pull some of the better teachers from the lesser high schools with higher pay. It is considered bad form to do so, but it happens. It is usually disguised by giving the teacher more authority/responsibility at the new school.

[sethypooh21]

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The crux, though, is showing some causation between a specific wrongful act on the part of the Pouls and the subsequent refusal of the school to renew the contract.

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Howard, this seems pretty squarely a question of fact:

From the facts presented a reasonable jury could conclude that since Tollin was fired after the parental asshatery, and would probably not have been let go absent said asshatery (based on testimonials, taken in the light most favorable to Tollin), that the asshatery caused the firing. I suppose a directed verdict at the close of plaintiff's case would be possible, if nothing really concrete had come out, but that's both unlikely, and not especially good, as the defense has had to do all their trial prep and motion work, which is spendy.

I don't know the Philly rules on punitives, but where I live, I don't think the defense even gets summary judgment on that issue. (Was the parents' conduct "outrageous"? Certainly a plausible characterization.)

Settle, and do it now, would be my advice. Or it would be after the judge denied the motion for PSJ on punitives.

[Howard Treesong]

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Howard, this seems pretty squarely a question of fact:

From the facts presented a reasonable jury could conclude that since Tollin was fired after the parental asshatery, and would probably not have been let go absent said asshatery (based on testimonials, taken in the light most favorable to Tollin), that the asshatery caused the firing. I suppose a directed verdict at the close of plaintiff's case would be possible, if nothing really concrete had come out, but that's both unlikely, and not especially good, as the defense has had to do all their trial prep and motion work, which is spendy.

I don't know the Philly rules on punitives, but where I live, I don't think the defense even gets summary judgment on that issue. (Was the parents' conduct "outrageous"? Certainly a plausible characterization.)

Settle, and do it now, would be my advice. Or it would be after the judge denied the motion for PSJ on punitives.

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Even though I think virtually everything the Pouls did was asshatted, it's not clear to me that all of their actions are wrongful in a legal sense. For example, suppose they had said to the administration "We're not fond of the manner in which Tollin refuses to prevent other students from calling our daughter a gross fatty that will grow up to be a -100 on the 2p2 OOT chick scale. Because of that, we're going to withhold our superrobusto donation to the school unless you fire her, and spend it instead on that pinched-but-moneyed look to which we both aspire." While certainly asshatted, I don't think that statement is tortious, and the schools refusal to renew on that basis would be very lame but just as legal.

Thus, I think Tollin has to tie a specific wrongful act to the firing. Mere asshattedness in the 2p2 sense isn't enough. I'm not so sure that's easy to do. Mrs. P certainly assaulted Tollin; but how is the assault causally related to the nonrenewal?

If I were on the defense side, I'd try to keep much of the asshattery out as inadmissible. The defense of "lame and dislikable but not liable" is tricky at times, but plenty of judges take causation seriously. I would not expect the cosmetic surgery piece, for example to come in.

If I were advising the defense, I wouldn't recommend settlement here until I figured out my judge draw and took several depositions on causation. That said, I'd find the defense unpalatable (based on my clients' clear state of gross asshattification) and technical, which is usually a bad combination.

On these facts, Tollin is I think a favorite. But more as AK is a favorite to JT than AA is to AK.

It's a big plus to Tollin that she's only asking for $200K. To any jury, that will seem like peanuts insofar as the Pouls are concerned.

[supafrey]

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Idling engines do a dropkick on the environment that's exponentially worse than a moving vehicle.

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How does the relative velocity of exhaust impact its effect on the environment? The only reason idling is lame is because you don't get useful motion in trade for the exhaust costs. Yes, of course it's bad for the environment for people to leave cars idling at length, but that point has absolutely nothing to do with the question the man asked.

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The man was obviously being silly, but far from an asshat. Your snarky "joke" screams of grade school immaturity which, in my opinion, resembles asshattery much more than a guy that doesn't see a disconnect between idling engines -> worse air -> kids breathing in crap.

And the point is that an idling engine releases more exhaust than similar periods of time from a moving car. That lineup of cars you're talking about is doing much more damage than a similar amount of cars zipping along at 35mph. Many cities now offer stiff fines for idling cars - and for good reason. As happy as you are that your kids are "temporarily protected" by the building's walls, they're going to step outside eventually.

[sethypooh21]

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Howard, this seems pretty squarely a question of fact:

From the facts presented a reasonable jury could conclude that since Tollin was fired after the parental asshatery, and would probably not have been let go absent said asshatery (based on testimonials, taken in the light most favorable to Tollin), that the asshatery caused the firing. I suppose a directed verdict at the close of plaintiff's case would be possible, if nothing really concrete had come out, but that's both unlikely, and not especially good, as the defense has had to do all their trial prep and motion work, which is spendy.

I don't know the Philly rules on punitives, but where I live, I don't think the defense even gets summary judgment on that issue. (Was the parents' conduct "outrageous"? Certainly a plausible characterization.)

Settle, and do it now, would be my advice. Or it would be after the judge denied the motion for PSJ on punitives.

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Even though I think virtually everything the Pouls did was asshatted, it's not clear to me that all of their actions are wrongful in a legal sense. For example, suppose they had said to the administration "We're not fond of the manner in which Tollin refuses to prevent other students from calling our daughter a gross fatty that will grow up to be a -100 on the 2p2 OOT chick scale. Because of that, we're going to withhold our superrobusto donation to the school unless you fire her, and spend it instead on that pinched-but-moneyed look to which we both aspire." While certainly asshatted, I don't think that statement is tortious, and the schools refusal to renew on that basis would be very lame but just as legal.

Thus, I think Tollin has to tie a specific wrongful act to the firing. Mere asshattedness in the 2p2 sense isn't enough. I'm not so sure that's easy to do. Mrs. P certainly assaulted Tollin; but how is the assault causally related to the nonrenewal?

If I were on the defense side, I'd try to keep much of the asshattery out as inadmissible. The defense of "lame and dislikable but not liable" is tricky at times, but plenty of judges take causation seriously. I would not expect the cosmetic surgery piece, for example to come in.

If I were advising the defense, I wouldn't recommend settlement here until I figured out my judge draw and took several depositions on causation. That said, I'd find the defense unpalatable (based on my clients' clear state of gross asshattification) and technical, which is usually a bad combination.

On these facts, Tollin is I think a favorite. But more as AK is a favorite to JT than AA is to AK.

It's a big plus to Tollin that she's only asking for $200K. To any jury, that will seem like peanuts insofar as the Pouls are concerned.

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I don't disagree, but the evidence, as presented so far, plausibly raises the issue of causation. Maybe where I practice judges work pretty hard to find questions of fact relative to PA, but I would never, ever, ever expect to receive summary judgment on causation in this fact pattern here.