How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more ?s)

[odellthurman]

Virtually all of the discussion on this site about jobs for lawyers is focused on big firms in big cities. The people working in those jobs make a lot of money and work a lot of hours. But the vast majority of lawyers don't work in those firms. There are many other options available to lawyers.

[MrMon]

Some of the numbers here are WAY off and some are accurate. The whole world does not operate like NYC.

At big firms in the Midwest, outside of Chicago, starting pay is $100K/yr right now. For that, you'll be expected to bill 1900 hr/yr. That usally means 50-60 hr weeks, but depending on your area of law, you can get hit with a surge that will take you well over that. But it won't be continuous. And note that in reality, you need to hit 90% of your goal to move up and be there when they need you. Disappear early every day, don't meet deadlines, yet meet your goal, you're in trouble.

The problem with the Midwest is, there's huge salary compression. Top level associates at many firms are only hitting $125K while starting is $100K. Same hour requirements. Partnership is after 7 yrs generally, and a lot of people make it at many firms. At partnership, hour requirements drop to 1800, but you're expected to do more non-billable. Immediately after making partner, your salary really doesn't change that much from associate when you consider all the additional taxes and expenses you have to pay. The real difference is bonus, which you now get as a function of the firms profitibility. So after a few years as a non-equity partner, you'll probably hit $200K total package. Then if you are one of the choosen to make equity, the big dollars will come, where they average about $350-400K total package after a few years at a profitable firm.

To even get in the door, you'll need to be top 20% minimum, 10% if you want a better shot. And here's the real deal, once you get in the door with a position, no one cares about grades and what school you went to. They assume you're smart enough or they wouldn't have hired you. It's all about work ethic, getting the job done on time, client relations, and most important of all, fitting in with the firm culture. They like you, you make it, they don't, you don't.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the Midwest is, there's huge salary compression. Top level associates at many firms are only hitting $125K while starting is $100K. Same hour requirements. Partnership is after 7 yrs generally, and a lot of people make it at many firms. At partnership, hour requirements drop to 1800, but you're expected to do more non-billable. Immediately after making partner, your salary really doesn't change that much from associate when you consider all the additional taxes and expenses you have to pay. The real difference is bonus, which you now get as a function of the firms profitibility. So after a few years as a non-equity partner, you'll probably hit $200K total package. Then if you are one of the choosen to make equity, the big dollars will come, where they average about $350-400K total package after a few years at a profitable firm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting in Cleveland in the fall at $115k. When you consider cost of living, that compares well to $160k in NYC. A lot of my future colleagues are from mid-level or worse schools.

A couple tips that might help:
-If you choose a lower-level school, it's really important that you get excellent grades.
-You'll have a much better chance if you're applying to a firm that's near your school. So either focus on law schools in the city you want to live in or focus your job search on your law school city.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
And here's the real deal, once you get in the door with a position, no one cares about grades and what school you went to. They assume you're smart enough or they wouldn't have hired you.

[/ QUOTE ]

While true, your grades and what school you went to are still important if you want to lateral to another firm (at least if you're a new attorney, 2-4 years out of law school).

[onoble]

Well what is better A mid level school with avg grades or a low level school with great grades (law review, etc)?

[thatpfunk]

"If your reason for wanting to go to law school is to make more money than the average soul, you will be miserable in practice. Pick something you really love to do, then find a way to make money doing it. "

EB,
this is at the crux of question- money is not the most important thing to me but i have always found law somewhat intriguing. it's always felt like i had it backwards and so during college i kind of shut the door on law school (why would i want to put in that kinda of time only to earn the $ that im not really chasing?).

now, a few years removed, having tried a bit of teaching, writing, poker, and general business but i find myself thinking about law school over grad school/any other real world job that has popped up.

all,
what are the options for those who don't jump immediately into a big firm? also, it has been mentioned "grad in the top 5% and youll be great, etc". im sure most people going into school have this intention but things dont always work out that way. what about the people who do well, but not THE best at their uni?

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And here's the real deal, once you get in the door with a position, no one cares about grades and what school you went to. They assume you're smart enough or they wouldn't have hired you.

[/ QUOTE ]

While true, your grades and what school you went to are still important if you want to lateral to another firm (at least if you're a new attorney, 2-4 years out of law school).

[/ QUOTE ]

They're less important than you might think. The law firm you are currently at is often the biggest factor, plus if you've developed expertise in an unusual area they need. When my wife switched at the 4 year point, grades were never mentioned, but the fact she had worked in a contract position (non-partnership track) for one of the top law firms in the region was all important. That and her specialty area. She interviews very well too. Grades and school may only come into it in a close situation. I've never heard her say any lateral they were considering was dependent on school or grades. Prior big firm experience is usually the big factor.

[gusmahler]

I'd say that most larger law firms don't look at anyone from outisde the 100 of the US News rankings. Outside the top 20 or so, you'll more likely to get jobs in the metropolitan area of the school than be able to go to NY, DC, Chicago, etc. That said, a large LA law firm will hire top students from local schools like Pepperdine (#88) and Loyola (#65). And SF Bay Area firms hire students from local schools like Santa Clara (#87).

So it depends on what you mean by "mid-level" and "low-level". E.g., to Stanford grads, schools outside the top 10 are "mid-level". (As an aside, I know a guy who transfered from Columbia Law (#4) to go to Yale Law (#1), because he didn't think Columbia was ranked high enough.)

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
Well what is better A mid level school with avg grades or a low level school with great grades (law review, etc)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can only tell you that Wash U. is a pretty good mid-level school and the cut line for them at my wife's firm isn't any lower than any other school. Once you get to an acceptable law school for the firm in question, I think grades are a pretty solid requirement. The only thing going to a better school will get you is more opportunities at bigger national firms. But not having the grades won't be made up for by the higher reputation, unless you're talking Harvard or Yale, where they might cut you a little slack.

[thirstyforwater]

[ QUOTE ]
This sounds obvious, but WAY too many people don't follow this advice:

Don't go to law school unless you genuinely want to practice law.

If your reason for wanting to go to law school is to make more money than the average soul, you will be miserable in practice. Pick something you really love to do, then find a way to make money doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

I started law school at Wisconsin this year. I actually like it a lot but I know that I am in the right place. I can't imagine someone putting in all that work to become a lawyer and then not want to practice law a year or two down the road.

Have you looked at any clinical programs that law schools offer? I was really pumped about some of the clinical programs that Wisconsin offers so I knew that it was the proper place for me to go. If you aren't interested in lawyer-type work, then I would say do not invest all of the time and money in going to law school.