BvB against overdefending TAG

[guenttrs]

Hi 2+2er,

i have problems to play against overdefending BigBlinds.
Villain is a solid TAG. His FoldBBtoSteal is around 20
over 200 hands. I believe he want fold any2 against an SB open raise. Is A2o with the given read still an open raise or should i just limp? He seems always to raise when i limp in from SB. With the lost initiative its hard to fight back when i dont hit the flop.

Back to this hand: the flop is standard imho as preflop aggressor. Should i slowdown with c/c or c/f the turn. An aggressive player will always bet this turn in position in a blindfight. Is A high strong enough to calldown from Turn?


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: 3 BB

[Innocentius]

I'm not very good at playing these situations myself, but I'll give it a shot...

You shouldn't limp here. A high is strong against a random hand. If your read is so strong that you know that he will always raise with any two, you might consider a limp-3bet line.

Flop is standard.

I think you have to fire on the turn. His call on the flop doesn't mean much. Actually, the kind of player you describe would often raise the flop with any piece of it. He might just call to see if you'll continue on the turn. If you don't, he will bet to try and take it away from you.

If he raises your turn bet, I think you have to fold. He could be bluffing, but more likely, he has at least middle pair, and you are drawing thin.

[guenttrs]

Thank you Inno for your reply.

I think the same way like you.
In this hand i fired the turn and fold to villains raise.
After my fold i felt like villain gets the most from me and i still dont know if i folded the best hand.

At this point i start to think about the c/c turn and river as an alternative. But this line really doesnt match with the TAG style i try to maintain/establish.

[Verde]

You said villain is a solid TAG, then you say that you belive that he doesn't fold any cards to an SB openraise. That can't be. Also you play 0.50/1, I doubt that there are any solid tags playing 0.5/1.
Try harder to find his flaws.

Raise preflop is standard. If he always raises when you limp you can limp reraise as your hand is likely best.

Bet flop.
Bet turn, if he raises then you got a problem. He could have a draw or a made hand, most likely he wont raise as a pure bluff.
If you are ahead he has at between 6 (unless he has a worse 2) and 20 outs if, I did my math right.
If you are behind you have 3 outs if you are lucky.
So a fold is fine.

[yourface]

c/f might be best on this turn. that is a really bad card for us.

[Donkey Kong]

[ QUOTE ]
Also you play 0.50/1, I doubt that there are any solid tags playing 0.5/1.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's a arrogant,isnt it? Do you play 0.5/1 yourself? What defines a solid TAG in your view?

[guenttrs]

I think one of his flaws is overdefending the bigblind.
This could easily exploited when villain is 2 or more seats to my left, because he will pay to much against my strong starting hands.

Directly to my left this is hard to exploit because his positional advantage seems to compensate his wider starting hand selection and aggression is rewarded in this BvB fights.

I really believe he tries to conditioning me not to steal his blind while i try to cash my edge with A2o against ATC.

[yourface]

A2o only has 55% equity vs a random hand, and villain is getting 3:1 on his call plus he has position.
http://gocee.com/poker/he_ev_hand.html

you shouldn't be folding many hands in the BB to a SB openraise.

[Nfinity]

First lets clear up some facts:

[ QUOTE ]
You said villain is a solid TAG, then you say that you belive that he doesn't fold any cards to an SB openraise. That can't be.

[/ QUOTE ]

The key bit of information you're not including in your estimation is the SB's open-raising range. A BB's defending hand only need about 35% equity vs a SB's raising range to call profitably. The lowest hands in the spectrum only stand to fall a little short of that given a SB open raising range of as little as 35%. Take into account that at a table with more than 2 opponents the BB will has position after the flop, and the added value of deception, a solid TAG COULD play 100% of his hands vs an open raising SB "profitably". I wouldn't do it, because of the extreme vulnerability to domination, and the value of deception going down incrementally once you reach a certain point in your hand range percentage, but it is possible.

[ QUOTE ]
Also you play 0.50/1, I doubt that there are any solid tags playing 0.5/1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Entity is doing a video project where he moves up as if rolling himself for higher stakes. He was at the FTP .50/1 games a little over a month ago. I'd say he's pretty good.

I just started re-rolling myself from the bottom about 2 months ago on a pretty limited BR. I am currently rolled for 1/2, but still play .50/1 when the game selection is a little better than my current limit. I won't say I'm the bestest, but I am pretty solid.


K, against all but the MOST aggressive BB defenders this is a clear Check Fold on the Turn. Whatever he's peeling with only the flop is going to be better than your hand WAY more than average.

[ QUOTE ]
After my fold i felt like villain gets the most from me and i still dont know if i folded the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't be worried about this on this particular hand. What you should be worried about is your opponent being more observant than most, and might start calling the flop light and betting any 2 cards when checked to on the Turn. In order to counter this, you don't take your weaker hands that stand to be losers to SD. You start mixing in Turn CR's with your very good hands.

Say for instance you had AK in this very same spot. If this specific opponent is the type to bet when checked to on the Turn, even with a draw, then it would be correct to CR the Turn here.

[ QUOTE ]
At this point i start to think about the c/c turn and river as an alternative. But this line really doesnt match with the TAG style i try to maintain/establish.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually a VERY good line, but more for situations where you Flop a marginal made hand on a draw heavy board against an aggressive opponent. You want to get to SD as cheaply as possible, your opponent is capable of bluffing or semi-bluffing draws on both the Turn and River so your calldown after the Flop has value. You also avoid getting bluff raised on the Turn and laying down the best hand. Turn Semi-bluff raising is few and far between at .50/1, but there are a lot of LAGGy players so it's good to know how to defend against it.

Maintaining a "TAG" image should NEVER deter you from taking the line that makes you the most money. All the best players around these boards will tell you that aggression, especially in marginal spots, is not always the key to winning. Often, it's better to let them give you the money instead of trying to take it.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

"You shouldn't limp here."

I would limp in this spot with this hand very close to 100% of the time. If the BB is not gonna fold to a SB open and he is also going to play tenaciously postflop, many hands that people think are standard raises actually become standard limps. A2o is one of those hands.

"A high is strong against a random hand."

Having an equity edge is not enough to justify a raise. Once we realize we have an edge we need to think about the line that is most likely to capture that edge. It is my contention that openraising in this spot is not the line that is most likely to seize our equity edge.

"If your read is so strong that you know that he will always raise with any two, you might consider a limp-3bet line."

Now youre on the right track. Im not saying that this is the right line but youre thinking in the right direction. Whenever you are OOP against aggressive tenacious opponents you will often have to take what may seem to be very unconventional lines just to get your fair share or close to your fair share.

"I think you have to fire on the turn."

Against most opponents, you should be check/folding the turn.

"His call on the flop doesn't mean much."

It would be nice to have the stat on this guy's flop folding percentage. I never play without this stat, I think its very important.

"Actually, the kind of player you describe would often raise the flop with any piece of it. He might just call to see if you'll continue on the turn. If you don't, he will bet to try and take it away from you."

This is the exact kind of player we dont want to open raise with A2o with. Having the initiative with this hand does not help us vs this specific opponent. In fact it hurts us. We are much better off open limping with this type of hand and letting him raise us with a very wide range. Letting him have the initiative will make this hand much easier to play correctly, which means we are much more likely to attain our fair share in this situation.