NL 5 -- Pocket 5's, hit a set in multi-way pot

Rookcifer · #1 10-02-2007, 04:33 AM

I flopped a set in a multi-way pot and I was in last position on the turn. No one bet on the flop, so I did, and you can see the rest. My question is my line on the turn and river. Right or wrong? Were my bet sizes correct? Should they have been bigger?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($3.86)
MP1 ($5.92)
MP2 ($3.55)
Hero ($5.50)
Button ($19.95)
SB ($10.61)
BB ($9.86)
UTG ($5.47)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.05, UTG+1 calls $0.05, MP1 calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.40) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.3, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $0.30, UTG+1 calls $0.30, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.30.

Turn: ($1.60) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $1, UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds.

River: ($3.60) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $4.12 (All-In), Hero calls $4.12.

Final Pot: $11.84

AlexB182 · #2 10-02-2007, 04:59 AM

I think you should've bet more on flop and turn, PSB is ok there. Problem is that the board is very drawy and that you're on the turn still up against three players who could all easily be drawing.
Additionally, you could raise PF to get some more money in the pot and to buy the button as well. In fact, raising here PF has close to only positive results.
River: personally, I don't think this is a must call on the river. Simply every draw came in (QJ for OESD, some weird 23 and of course the FD) and UTG has not shown any aggression so far plus your odds are pretty bad (less than 2:1).

piebear · #3 10-02-2007, 05:04 AM

Reload PF!

I would probably raise PF, make a psb on the flop, and definately on the turn. I don't call the river.

Rookcifer · #4 10-02-2007, 05:16 AM

Well, villain was obviously on a draw and did hit it (had QJ). The problem is, no matter how much you bet at these stakes, people will almost always call on a draw (no matter their odds). It is extremely frustrating to do all that betting on the flop and turn only to have to fold a set on the river because some moron call station hit their draw.

I have learned, though, that if u bet on flop and turn and call station suddenly pushes on the river, you are beat.

AlexB182 · #5 10-02-2007, 05:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, villain was obviously on a draw and did hit it (had QJ). The problem is, no matter how much you bet at these stakes, people will almost always call on a draw (no matter their odds). It is extremely frustrating to do all that betting on the flop and turn only to have to fold a set on the river because some moron call station hit their draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many players at the micros say things like that but that's flat out wrong!
It's not frustrating, it's very profitable. If you just pot it on every street and they call with insufficent odds, they make a big mistake every time. Of course they'll hit their draws every now and then but the rest of the times they are giving you by far more money than they should!
That's a huge advantage you have there by 1)not making this mistake and 2)using this mistake to your advantage!

Rookcifer · #6 10-02-2007, 05:52 AM

Alex,

Does my play there (more or less) have +EV? At least the play on flop and turn?

I have another question unrelated to this hand: what would you consider a good PTBB/100 win rate for NL5? I have been playing poker for only 2 months total. Right now my win rate looks like a mountain range when graphed. But at the moment I am around 6PTBB/100 at NL5. I had a run of 7k hands at NL2 where I had a 40 PTBB/100. I was just wondering what the average "progression rate" is for someone of my newbie status.

AlexB182 · #7 10-02-2007, 06:07 AM

Your play on flop and turn is absolutely +EV, it's exactly how you have to play against calling stations. Would've been perfect if you would've folded to his river shove.
PTBB winrates are often a big issue here and it is very problematic to say how your winrate will be if you have not played a certain (BIG!) number of hands so far.
7k hands at NL2 are far too few to draw any real conlusions fromt and 40 PTBB is definetly not sustainable over the long term. Unfortunately, I have never really played NL5 myself but from what I've read here I think that between 4 and 6PTBB should be possible there. Maybe someone can confirm or deny this.
Let me add one thing: personally I am of the opinion that especially when you just start out playing poker online, winrates should not be of such a big importance to you. If you improve your game steadily and play much more hands than you have so far, your winrate will develop and, more important, you will be able to obtain a healty winrate.

BotOnTilt · #8 10-02-2007, 06:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, no matter how much you bet at these stakes, people will almost always call on a draw (no matter their odds).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the problem is that some players think that they should win every hand and that by betting everyone else should fold even though they don't really price off draws and will pay them if they hit. In NL5 the pots are mostly multiway, which means that top-pair hands are often not enough. I think nut flushes were my most profitable hand at NL5, since the tables were so passive I could limp suited aces and get action when I make my hand.

Granted you did have a set which is a very good hand. People chase with almost everything, which is why you make money when you do make the nuts. Since they chase, you need to value bet stronger hands and realize when you are beat. In this hand villain did right in calling since you gave him good odds and even paid him off when he hit.

My BB/100 in NL5 was about 20-30, which is 10-15 ptBB. Played on Party, about 10k hands total I think. I do think over 20BB/100 is sustainable. Don't know how much more a good player could do. The thing is that at NL5 everyone is deep and they stack off easily.

BotOnTilt · #9 10-02-2007, 06:18 AM

Also about the betsizes. Bet atleast pot on the flop. I might make it .50 which is slightly more than the pot for the reason that there are so many players in the pot and I think I will get calls from someone, and might even get a lot of callers with that bet.

Turn, again bet pot. You still have three players and the pot is getting large. By betting pot you can get it all in on a blank river in case the caller has a hand like TPGK or two pairs he might stack off even though he might not bet.

River, fold. All the draws hit like mentioned earlier. You have been betting the whole time, its very unlikely that someone is bluffing.

thehempy · #10 10-02-2007, 06:19 AM

Preflop, flop and turn are fine (I dont agree with those advocating a raise PF, this is NL5, your only juicing up the pot with a speculative hand against likely 4/5 callers)

River needs to be insta-folded at this level, every draw got there.