LO/8 JJTT in Micro-Limit Game

sfgiants · #1 05-14-2007, 03:08 AM

Playing in a game where it is typical to have 6 people to the flop and not much pf-raising, so I can get in pretty cheap. I understand this is very low limit, but as I outlined in one of my first posts, I hope to learn the value of bankroll management by working my way up. I italicized my thoughts - please let me know if I am mistaken on any or all streets.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

A pretty marginal hand, but figured I could get in cheap and fold if the flop didn't hit me hard. Question: Should I factor in any set value with the Jacks or Tens? I avoid playing low cards for set value - could the same principle apply here because of the propensity of lower-limit plyers to play high-only hands and thus the increased likelihood of a high straight?

Flop: (15 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.
A very marginal flop, but the pot was large. A non-diamond King would give me a nut straight, but there's also the high probability of splitting the high end of the pot with another player with an identical Ace high straight if the turn and river both brought high cards. There were also two low cards on the flop, so I could be splitting that way as well.

Turn: (11 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls, SB calls.

[i]After I made my straight I wanted to knock players out. I knew that no-one would fold to one bet, so I hoped a late position player would bet, allowing me to raise and force others to call two bets cold. [/b]

River: (22 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

[i] Is the pot big enough to justify a call here? (.10 in a 2.20 pot), but both flush and full-house are possible/likely.
Final Pot: 25 BB

Overall, I think I played this hand pretty poorly. I view this as a textbook example of why one should avoid marginal hands pf and marginal draws. Even if I hit my straight, there were so many other possibilities I would have to worry about - another high card would mean a split pot - a low card would also split the pot. A third suited card would spell trouble - etc, etc. The odds are deceptive.

My turn-check raise backfired - instead of knocking players out I just built the pot.

My concluding thoughts are that although the size of the pot was tempting, I just forced me into bad plays by not thinking through all possible situations. I should have folded pre-flop and flop. Agree, disagree? Any thoughts are welcome.

bbartlog · #2 05-14-2007, 08:06 AM

I would play this hand in a loose limit game. It has a lot of high potential.
The flop is a fold though. You aren't closing the action and you're drawing to only three clean outs, all of which still allow for opponent redraws for some or all of the pot. For this hand you would want to flop a straight/OESD to the nut str8/set.

chaos · #3 05-14-2007, 08:38 AM

The problem with JJTT is that you rarely make the nuts and scoop the pot. Remember that the object of the game is to scoop the pot.

If you flop a set of Jacks or Tens, there will either be over cards enabling a bigger set, a possible straight, and/or a possible low. So unless you end up with an Ace-high straight or the nut full house you can not bet your hand with confidence.

[ QUOTE ]
because of the propensity of lower-limit plyers to play high-only hands

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not sure about this. Players will play a decent high-only hand at any stakes. Many low-limit players will play middle cards, three high cards with one-low card, and other poor hands.

- chaos

Heron · #4 05-14-2007, 09:50 AM

I think JJTT is well playable for one bet. A flopped top set is better than a flush draw (if you fill up there will sometimes be no low) and in case of a straight or an OESD the duplicated cards have defensive value because they make it less likely that someone else holds JT, too.

It's clear that you have to fold the flop but the raise on the turn is not much better IMO. You will almost certainly get nothing from the pot when either one of the flushes comes in or the board pairs (28/44) and you will have to split the pot when one of the low cards apart from diamonds and spades falls on the river (12/44). Only 4 (JT99) of 44 cards give you a chance to scoop. I hope I counted the outs right but you get the picture anyway.

bbartlog · #5 05-14-2007, 10:08 AM

With five players contributing I think the turn bet is fine. True that there are very few scoop outs, but when half the cards give you half the pot then pulling in more money five-handed is OK.

Heron · #6 05-14-2007, 10:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With five players contributing I think the turn bet is fine. True that there are very few scoop outs, but when half the cards give you half the pot then pulling in more money five-handed is OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many thanks, I'm convinced now.

HLS2k6 · #7 05-14-2007, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A pretty marginal hand, but figured I could get in cheap and fold if the flop didn't hit me hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thinking above is exactly correct. So why did you do the exact opposite??

On this flop you have a gutshot to a straight on a board with both 2 to a flush and 2 to a low (a wheel no less). You have 3 clean outs, one of which will put another flush draw out there and still leave you with half the pot if the river is a low card.

Plus, your set outs are tainted as can be. Finally, you're calling a bet from a preflop raiser with FIVE people to act behind you!

This flop call is just awful. It has nothing to do with playing marginal hands leading to tough decisions, because this isn't a tough decision.

The flop wasn't marginal for you, it was terrible. And the pot isn't large, it's laying you 15 to 1 one, and your odds are 15 to 1 to hit a non diamond king on the turn (3 outs with 45 unknown cards). So if no one raises it behind you, and you hit your King on the turn, your call would mathematically break even for you (not counting turning a set and rivering a boat). Then you need to somehow blank the river-- no low, no flush, AND the board doesn't pair-- and you scoop.

Cliff notes: Preflop fine. Flop is a super easy fold.

Buzz · #8 05-14-2007, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Question: Should I factor in any set value with the Jacks or Tens?

[/ QUOTE ]Giant Fan - I'm not sure what you mean. You mainly have a pair of jacks and a pair of tens. You also have a JT straight draw, plus a non-nut flush draw.

AKQ, KQ9, Q98, and 987 on a flop without all cards the same suit make a nut straight. 256-16 = 240 nut straights... and 4 nut straight flushes (out of 17296 possible flops). That's an additional 1% or so for nut straights. Plus you have lots of straight draws. But mainly you want to make a set with this starting hand.

You should expect to catch a ten or jack on the flop and thus make a set about one time in four. The other three times in four you will miss but might have a straight or straight draw.

I'd play this hand from late position for one bet in a loose game.

But you're not in late position. If you play this hand from early position for one bet, you have to be very sure there will not be a raise behind you, since you don't want to play this hand for two bets.

[ QUOTE ]
could the same principle apply here because of the propensity of lower-limit plyers to play high-only hands and thus the increased likelihood of a high straight?

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know what you mean. Your opponents will probably like high cards. But when you hold JJTT, nobody else will probably have been dealt a hand with four high cards. 0.00935 is the probability of any one opponent being dealt four cards of ten or above. That's small enough to multiply by the number of opponents to approximate the chances of being up against someone with four cards of ten and above. You have eight opponents? Then it's about 8% likely one of them was dealt a hand with four cards of ten and above, and 92% unlikely. Of course someone could also be playing a hand with only two or three high cards.

[ QUOTE ]
A very marginal flop, but the pot was large.

[/ QUOTE ]No. It's not a marginal flop. You missed the flop. Period.

You don't have a playable hand after this flop.

[ QUOTE ]
After I made my straight I wanted to knock players out. I knew that no-one would fold to one bet, so I hoped a late position player would bet, allowing me to raise and force others to call two bets cold.

[/ QUOTE ]You missed the flop, but played anyhow and got lucky. Your raise here is the correct play, in my humble opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
Is the pot big enough to justify a call here?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes.

Tough luck on the river. But that's the game. Instead of thinking in terms of needing two cards from your hand, think of it as needing three cards from the board. After the flop, there is one three-card combination. After the turn, there are four three-card combinations. After the river, there are ten three-card combinations. Looking at it that way, you can clearly see that Omaha-8 is a drawing game, a river game.

Buzz

Fiasco · #9 05-14-2007, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Question: Should I factor in any set value with the Jacks or Tens?

[/ QUOTE ] Youre playing this hand MOSTLY for set value. you wouldnt play a hand like J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] would you? Although you can make straights and flushes, youre really just hoping to flop a set or an open ender here.

[ QUOTE ]
A very marginal flop, but the pot was large. A non-diamond King would give me a nut straight, but there's also the high probability of splitting the high end of the pot with another player with an identical Ace high straight if the turn and river both brought high cards. There were also two low cards on the flop, so I could be splitting that way as well.

[/ QUOTE ] You make an excellent case for a fold and then procede to call. If we figure that you wont split the pot with another broadway AND forget about the redraws then youre getting the right price to call. As is I think this is a fold by a little bit.

[ QUOTE ]
After I made my straight I wanted to knock players out. I knew that no-one would fold to one bet, so I hoped a late position player would bet, allowing me to raise and force others to call two bets cold.

[/ QUOTE ] The pot is huge, nobody with any kind of legit draw is going anywhere for two bets, and since youre up against most of the table, expect to be up against some decent draws. I wouldnt worry about knocking people out, but I WOULD try and get maximum value out of the turn. All in all I dont think a checkraise was so horrible. Also, if you are splitting on the turn, you have the chance to whipsaw the rest of the field.

[ QUOTE ]
Is the pot big enough to justify a call here? (.10 in a 2.20 pot), but both flush and full-house are possible/likely.

[/ QUOTE ] The pot is huge and theres a tiny chance that the bettor has the same hand as you. Go ahead and call.

Im OK with the preflop call, but not from that position. OK to play this hand late position in this kind of game.

Fiasco · #10 05-14-2007, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tough luck on the river. But that's the game. Instead of thinking in terms of needing two cards from your hand, think of it as needing three cards from the board. After the flop, there is one three-card combination. After the turn, there are four three-card combinations. After the river, there are ten three-card combinations. Looking at it that way, you can clearly see that Omaha-8 is a drawing game, a river game.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ] Holy [censored] buzz, Ive never thought of it that way. You just blew my mind. (Im seriously not being sarcastic, I feel like somebody who just saw the candlestick between the two faces).