Lakers and Bulls discussing Kobe trade daily

[Assani Fisher]

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Sorry Assani, but no way I ever take Kobe over KG on the Bulls. A big man is so much more valuable to this team and I'm not sure why you disagree. We have plenty of ouside shooters and just need a post player. TT is a project and not ready to be the starting 4 on a championship team. I'm honesly amazed that you guys like Kobe more [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]. His scoring is nice, but doesn't come close to the intangibles a dominant big man would give us. I still think Gasol, Brand and Marion are considerably better options as well. I'd experiment with some bigger lineups also if we could land one of these big men.

Thabo/Duhon
Deng/Gardner
TT/Noc/Griff/Khryapa
KG/Smith
Wallace/Gray

Assuming we could have gotten KG for Hinrich, Gordon, P.J., draft pick (Noah). I would of added Noc, Duhon or future pick if I had to...

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I thought I made it pretty clear why I disagreed...

1. The Bulls weak spot defensively right now is at the 2 guard spot. Kobe fills this.

2. The Bulls don't need rebounding help since they have Wallace and Deng is an excellent rebounder for his position. Due to this, some of what KG offers is wasted.

3. The Bulls lack a guy to go to in the clutch. Did you watch the game tonight? Did you see the shot they got at the end of regulation? Kobe solves this problem instantly; KG does not.

4. "We have plenty of ouside shooters and just need a post player."...No. You don't need a post player. You need someone that can consistently attack the rim and get to the foul line. You need someone that can consistently create for himself even when his outside shot isn't falling. Now this could be a post player or it could be a perimeter player. But you need someone to fit this mold. That is what you are lacking. And Kobe provides this moreso than any other player in the league. Just because almost all championship teams have had a dominant big man defender, don't mistake that to mean that all championship teams have had a dominant big man offensive player because that simply isn't true.

5. You're correct that right now TT isn't ready to be a major contributor on a championship squad. However, hes serviceable enough that if hes your worst starter ,you're ok. And by the end of the 08-09 season, imo he'll definitely be a strength and not a weakness....maybe even by the end of this season to be honest. Conversely, Ben Gordon imo should not be the #1 option on a championship caliber squad, and he would still be forced into that role if you brought in Gasol, KG, or Marion. Gordon would flourish in a 6th man role ala Leandro Barbosa.

6. "His scoring is nice, but doesn't come close to the intangibles a dominant big man would give us." What intangibles are you talking about? Rebounding? Interior defense? Leadership? You already have all of those already. What you're lacking is a dominant scorer. I don't know how else I can say this.

7. "Sorry Assani, but no way I ever take Kobe over KG on the Bulls."

"I'm not sure why you disagree."

"I'm honesly amazed that you guys like Kobe more"

Stop making up for your lack of sound reasoning with this filler material. We already know your opinion, no need to keep telling us.

Honestly you just wrote a 3 or 4 paragraph reply and basically the only points you raised were:

-a big man is more valuable to the Bulls
-The Bulls "just need a post player."
-TT is not ready to be starting on a championship team
-Kobe doesn't give you the intangibles that a big man does

The only decent point in all of that is the Tyrus Thomas one.

102,740 and counting

[Franchise 60]

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I'm now hoping the Bulls don't get Kobe, because frankly their fans don't deserve him.

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This is such a retarded thing to say. ALL FANS IN EVERY CITY ARE GOING TO OVERVALUE HOMEGROWN TALENT. I hate when people try to act high and mighty like this doesn't happen in their city or to fans of their favorite team.

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I'm talking about people unfairly bashing Kobe, not overvaluing their homegrown talent.

Examples :

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Now I don't doubt Kobe's skills, but his drama queen bs really drags down team morale. That is the antithesis of what we're trying to do here.

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No way I do this deal. Deng, Tyrus, Thabo and Wallace are untouchable. Lakers balk at this....go [censored] yourself. The Bulls are set for the next decade and I'm only interested in Kobe at ten cents on the dollar.

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Kobe would also have the Jordan issue to deal with. No one in this town will ever allow Kobe to reach MJ. I hope Kobe realizes this.

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After the way he behaved last night, I might not even give up anything. What a terrible performance. That was the most selfish, poor display I've ever seen. KG never did and that and neither would Jordan.

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I'd rather the Bulls kept their current core instead of sending some of it off to get one of the best 2 guards of all-time who is a bad teammate and generally has a bad attitude towards his job.


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I realize most of these posts are from one retarded fan, and I realize there are many many smart, knowledgeable Bulls fans. But there are also many idiotic Bulls fans like this, and don't deserve to watch Kobe play every night for their team (a joy I will never get for my lousy ran team).

But I'm a big Kobe supporter, and obviously a lot of people don't like him, but it doesn't make me retarded to think some fans don't deserve him after reading many posts bashing him.

[Franchise 60]

I agree with all of Assani's points on why Kobe would be a great fit in chicago. And thinking Marion is a better fit on this team is outright insanity.

[Floyd13]

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I'm now hoping the Bulls don't get Kobe, because frankly their fans don't deserve him.

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This is such a retarded thing to say. ALL FANS IN EVERY CITY ARE GOING TO OVERVALUE HOMEGROWN TALENT. I hate when people try to act high and mighty like this doesn't happen in their city or to fans of their favorite team.

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I'm talking about people unfairly bashing Kobe, not overvaluing their homegrown talent.

Examples :

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Now I don't doubt Kobe's skills, but his drama queen bs really drags down team morale. That is the antithesis of what we're trying to do here.

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No way I do this deal. Deng, Tyrus, Thabo and Wallace are untouchable. Lakers balk at this....go [censored] yourself. The Bulls are set for the next decade and I'm only interested in Kobe at ten cents on the dollar.

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Kobe would also have the Jordan issue to deal with. No one in this town will ever allow Kobe to reach MJ. I hope Kobe realizes this.

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After the way he behaved last night, I might not even give up anything. What a terrible performance. That was the most selfish, poor display I've ever seen. KG never did and that and neither would Jordan.

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I'd rather the Bulls kept their current core instead of sending some of it off to get one of the best 2 guards of all-time who is a bad teammate and generally has a bad attitude towards his job.


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I realize most of these posts are from one retarded fan, and I realize there are many many smart, knowledgeable Bulls fans. But there are also many idiotic Bulls fans like this, and don't deserve to watch Kobe play every night for their team (a joy I will never get for my lousy ran team).

But I'm a big Kobe supporter, and obviously a lot of people don't like him, but it doesn't make me retarded to think some fans don't deserve him after reading many posts bashing him.

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First of all, you guys sure are a hostile group. Not sure why I'm called a moron and undeserving of watching the great Kobe Bryant. Sorry, already saw a much better version of him for a decade. Sucks that you didn't and have to settle for Kobe.

Kobe not a drama queen? LOL. Kobe breaking through Jordan's shadow? LOL. Kobe not being a selfish bitch last night? LOL. KG, Gasol, Brand and Marion are all very solid teammates while Kobe, not so much. You disagree? I will always value big men much more than Kobe, so deal with it. And btw Assani, I think I know how a team can win w/o a big man. I wasn't gonna go point by point, but I'll break down your post tomorrow. Going to bed now.

Edit- Actually I'm gonna do it now. Then I can read the flames tomorrow when I get up.

[Taraz]

Regarding Kobe's "selfish" performance last night, TrueHoop had some great comments about the situation:

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To try to get an idea of how Kobe’s seeing his teammates, let’s examine how (his fourth quarter) passes turned out.

•Five passes to Luke Walton. Four times it comes back to Bryant, one time Walton gets fouled.
•Two passes to Jordan Farmar, leading to two missed jumpers by other players.
•Twice to Ronny Turiaf. One time it comes back, the other time it’s a missed jumper.
•Once to Maurice Evans, who passes it right back.
•Once time to Andrew Bynum, who passes it back.
•Once to Derek Fisher for the game-tying basket.

After considering how productive Bryant was on his own, and how little came out of his passes, one could make the argument that in his head, most of his teammates were not worth passing to with the game on the line.

In almost every case — before that pass to Fisher — Bryant ends up seeing a missed jumper or getting the ball back anyway.

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Now I'm not saying Kobe wasn't forcing it a lot, but it didn't seem like he had many options.

[Vyse]

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2. The Bulls don't need rebounding help since they have Wallace and Deng is an excellent rebounder for his position. Due to this, some of what KG offers is wasted.

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Not really. Wallace is on the decline. Like for the past five years. Bulls were an above-average rebounding team but not near the best.

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3. The Bulls lack a guy to go to in the clutch.

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Kobe is one of the worst clutch players in the NBA. Check out his FG% on game-winning shots or his 4th qtr FG%. Horrendous.

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You don't need a post player. You need someone that can consistently attack the rim and get to the foul line.

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Which is what they expect Deng to become. And what Deng should become.

Kobe's a huge jump shooter btw, he just gets to the line a ton because the officials get in bed with him. Literally. (See: opening night. WTF?!??!!?!?! WTF WTF WTF.)

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You need someone that can consistently create for himself even when his outside shot isn't falling.

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As a Lakers fan, I wish Kobe did this more.

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And Kobe provides this moreso than any other player in the league.

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iono, I kinda like D-Wade. Or P. Pierce.

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Conversely, Ben Gordon imo should not be the #1 option on a championship caliber squad

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I think they said that about Chauncey Billups...

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and he would still be forced into that role if you brought in Gasol, KG

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Now this is just WTF

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Gordon would flourish in a 6th man role ala Leandro Barbosa.

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Dunno about you but I'm sure most teams don't like intentionally limiting their player when they can play them more minutes at the same effectiveness. Nevermind that Gordon is gonna cost the same amount of money either way. So you're only hurting yourself.

YA PLAYIN' YASELF! (c) Jeru

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Rebounding? Interior defense?

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You know, these things aren't intangibles. Because we can, like, measure them. Like a cup. Or thermometer.

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What you're lacking is a dominant scorer.

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You say this as if without this they can't win the championship. I'm pretty sure the Spurs and Pistons would disagree.

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The only decent point in all of that is the Tyrus Thomas one.

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Let me help him out. How about these:

1. Trading for Kobe involves too many more resources compared to trading for, say, Pau Gasol, and the marginal gain does not make up for it.

2. Defense on the perimeter is not hard to find (SUP BRUCE BOWEN, IME UDOKA, or.... THABO SEFOLOSHA [WTF HE'S ON THE BULLS?!?!]) while low-post scoring is quite impossible, yet every championship-quality team has some. But the Bullz. Zzz. It's 1:58. ZZzzzz.

3. Big ego + Scott Skiles = WTF SELFDESTRUCTION

4. Many of the things that Kobe will bring to the team are things that Luol Deng should also eventually bring, because he's a 22-year-old who averaged nearly 19 points a game shooting better than 51 percent who is a slasher, not a jump shooter. Those guys learn how to get to the line. And the refs start handing them more and more gifts the better they get, simply because they're the refs and the NBA is a bit flawed when it comes to that.

PS: Ben Gordon is also getting more proficient at getting to the line, with 5.4 FTA in 33 mpg last year.

5. If the Bulls get to choose, inside scoring is much more preferable than perimeter scoring because the Bulls have two of the best young perimeter scorers in the entire NBA. Ben Gordon: improved FG% each year (45.5% last year), 42% from 3pt career, 84% from line career, rising trend of FTA, just 24 with room for improvement (TOs, PFs), and he averaged over 21 ppg on just 16.3 FGA.

PS: This is obviously dependant on the Bulls not having to give up Deng or Gordon for a Gasol... But they might not have to, due to point No. 1.

[Vyse]

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Regarding Kobe's "selfish" performance last night, TrueHoop had some great comments about the situation:

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To try to get an idea of how Kobe’s seeing his teammates, let’s examine how (his fourth quarter) passes turned out.

•Five passes to Luke Walton. Four times it comes back to Bryant, one time Walton gets fouled.
•Two passes to Jordan Farmar, leading to two missed jumpers by other players.
•Twice to Ronny Turiaf. One time it comes back, the other time it’s a missed jumper.
•Once to Maurice Evans, who passes it right back.
•Once time to Andrew Bynum, who passes it back.
•Once to Derek Fisher for the game-tying basket.

After considering how productive Bryant was on his own, and how little came out of his passes, one could make the argument that in his head, most of his teammates were not worth passing to with the game on the line.

In almost every case — before that pass to Fisher — Bryant ends up seeing a missed jumper or getting the ball back anyway.

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Now I'm not saying Kobe wasn't forcing it a lot, but it didn't seem like he had many options.

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Did you watch the game? Notice when Kobe's actually passing the ball. Usually when he gets the ball on the wing, attempts to get into the line as 2-3 defenders collapse, he is forced to retreat and pass.

Guess what? His teammates REALLY aren't going to be able to do much of anything when they get the ball like that. Yet when they actually get the ball from Kobe in the flow of the offense, they actually manage to shoot well and be efficient and the Lakers win more. COINCIDENCE?

DUN DUN DUN!

[Michael Davis]

Floyd,

One of the reasons I don't post much in Sports is because in reality I'm just an idiot fan who knows very little.

-Michael

[Floyd13]

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I thought I made it pretty clear why I disagreed...


1. The Bulls weak spot defensively right now is at the 2 guard spot. Kobe fills this.

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Yes, but you see Gordon would be sent packing leaving us with Thabo. A very good defender. Also as I said before, I would give Deng and Noc some minutes there as well. Both very good defenders. Defense at the 2 is actually one of our strengths w/o Gordon.

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2. The Bulls don't need rebounding help since they have Wallace and Deng is an excellent rebounder for his position. Due to this, some of what KG offers is wasted.


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Are you for real here? You can never have enough rebounding and this is just plain absurd to claim KG is being wasted. Wallace could use the help and to think we can already outrebound people like SA or Utah? WTF? A big man would be a huge asset here.

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3. The Bulls lack a guy to go to in the clutch. Did you watch the game tonight? Did you see the shot they got at the end of regulation? Kobe solves this problem instantly; KG does not.

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Ummm, how is KG not clutch? He made some huge shots the year they made the ECF. You're way off base thinking he's some kind of scrub scared of taking the shot, while Kobe will don his superman cape a la MJ LOL. Furthermore, Noc wants the ball and is not afraid to take big shots. In fact he made a huge 3 tonight. Not to mention I'd like to ultimately see Deng evolve into this role. This is not even the slightest concern.

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4. "We have plenty of ouside shooters and just need a post player."...No. You don't need a post player. You need someone that can consistently attack the rim and get to the foul line. You need someone that can consistently create for himself even when his outside shot isn't falling. Now this could be a post player or it could be a perimeter player. But you need someone to fit this mold. That is what you are lacking. And Kobe provides this moreso than any other player in the league. Just because almost all championship teams have had a dominant big man defender, don't mistake that to mean that all championship teams have had a dominant big man offensive player because that simply isn't true.


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First of all, you just admitted not many teams have won w/o a dominant big man. As I said, I watched one of them very closely and the only reason we won without one is because we had the greatest player of all time. This is not going to happen again anytime soon.

Next, what do you think a post player does? Attack the rim and get to the foul line. KG is a good FT shooter and would easily do this for us. Kobe is a little better at this but it's not night and day. In fact a big man is more consistent night in and night out than a shooter. A big man can easily create for himself down on the block. And KG is a better passer than Kobe which makes him even more dangerous in the paint. We already have too many jumpshooters and you want another one? I'm still [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].

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5. You're correct that right now TT isn't ready to be a major contributor on a championship squad. However, hes serviceable enough that if hes your worst starter ,you're ok. And by the end of the 08-09 season, imo he'll definitely be a strength and not a weakness....maybe even by the end of this season to be honest. Conversely, Ben Gordon imo should not be the #1 option on a championship caliber squad, and he would still be forced into that role if you brought in Gasol, KG, or Marion. Gordon would flourish in a 6th man role ala Leandro Barbosa.


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KG or Deng would be number one and Gordon would be gone anyway. Too bad because I do agree that he would flourish as a sixth man. TT has said himself that he's a 3 and I'd like to see him there at least for now. No way he's strong enought to bang all year with the 4's. Maybe in the future he can move up, but even comparing him to KG at the 4 is ridiculous, and I'm the biggest TT fan in the world. With KG we'd have so many more options and could use tons of big lineups with TT at the 3, Deng/Noc/Thabo/Gardner at the 2.

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6. "His scoring is nice, but doesn't come close to the intangibles a dominant big man would give us." What intangibles are you talking about? Rebounding? Interior defense? Leadership? You already have all of those already. What you're lacking is a dominant scorer. I don't know how else I can say this.


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When putting together a team, you build upon strength. The more defense and rebounding in the middle the better. This is obvious I thought. And as I mentioned he can pass. This would be huge for us as Wallace is the only big man that can pass at all on this team. And you act like KG scores 10 and Kobe scores 80. Kobe averages what 10 more? No way I trade those points for the defense, rebounding, shot blocking, passing, leadership and teammate that KG is. And why do you need one dominant scorer. The Spurs didn't have one last year, unless you count Duncan, but then you're just proving my case.

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7. "Sorry Assani, but no way I ever take Kobe over KG on the Bulls."

"I'm not sure why you disagree."

"I'm honesly amazed that you guys like Kobe more"

Stop making up for your lack of sound reasoning with this filler material. We already know your opinion, no need to keep telling us.

Honestly you just wrote a 3 or 4 paragraph reply and basically the only points you raised were:

-a big man is more valuable to the Bulls
-The Bulls "just need a post player."
-TT is not ready to be starting on a championship team
-Kobe doesn't give you the intangibles that a big man does

The only decent point in all of that is the Tyrus Thomas one.

102,740 and counting

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Now you know. You want a few more? How about a big man that can quickly outlet the ball. Again Wallace is our only big that can do this. Or maybe somone that can pick and roll. None of our bigs can do that either and Kobe ain't gonna be setting screens. A passing big man like KG, Webber, even Gasol allows for other players to get easy buckets. Now if Kobe could make his teammates better like Nash, then we'll talk. I bet KG gets his teammates more open looks than Kobe does. And finally, how about a big man that can get some respect. Our guys get no calls and are abused down low. Another problem solved by a great big man like KG.

[Floyd13]

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Floyd,

One of the reasons I don't post much in Sports is because in reality I'm just an idiot fan who knows very little.

-Michael

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Is this another insult? WTF?