salary negotiation

[MusashiStyle]

I'm applying for a job at a large research institution (High Energy Physics) I have a B.S. degree and it is an entry level job as an operational engineer. I'm not planning on making any arguments until I actually have the job, however there is a line on the application asking for your "requested salary". Any ballpark figures for this? I'm hoping 40-50k but I have no idea really

[suzzer99]

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In my experieince, it is very difficult for someone who takes 1 year off from work to get back into the work force.


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this is field dependent, and in suzzer's field (which is mine also) not really the case at all.

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Also, what have you been telling HR when they ask you why you were out of work for a year?

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uhh, "I took a year off off work to play poker/travel/whatever"? from an employer's perspective, would you rather hire an excellent engineer who took a year off or a mediocre engineer who didn't?

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This is all true. The job market for web developers, at least in LA, is so white hot right now they really don't care. I've been telling them I played poker, but also trying to illustrate how much work it was. And trying to get across that it was a nice sabbatical from programming but I'm ready to get back into it, yadda yadda. It's all in how you sell it. I'm not embarassed about poker and I'm proud of how hard I worked to get good at it. If I acted ashamed and sheepish about it maybe they would pick up on that too.

But like I said, they probably still wouldn't care. One thing I noticed, no one even asked for my professional/personal references this time around. That seems kind of weird to me for a senior position.

Also if I had taken a year off to be a crack addict or something I really didn't wan't to admit to, I could just tell them I was doing contract work. When I was in my early 20s I told a potential employer I was working on a gold mine in Alaska for the summer. That was harder to pull off than I thought. But once I started I had to see it through. I forget why, some job I'd gotten fired off of I think.

[renodoc]

This is a very interesting thread.

I've been the employer for the past 9 years or so. Most of my employees make somewhere between $11 and $20 per hour. Management makes more. Some observations:

1. Hourly wage earners have some type of mental disorder that ties their self-esteem into their hourly wage. Its insane. You can do an annual review and offer them the choice of a $1 per hour pay hike or a $3000 bonus with a review and possible raise in 1 year and they will take the $1/hr every time.

2. I agree completely with the idea of stating the entire compensation package. Here would be an example:

Wage $15/hr x 2000 = $30,000
Paid vacation: 2 weeks at $15/hr $ 1,200
Health Insurance $ 3,000
Dental $ 500
LT Disability $ 120
401(k) match $ 900
Employers FICA share $ 2,000
Employers Medicare share $ 435
Yearly Merit Bonus $ 1200
Xmas Bonus $ 700

TOTAL $40,055

which, on an hourly basis is $19.25 per hour, about 25% more than the "wage" the employee is receiving. Most wage earners have no clue how much it really costs the employer to keep the employee. I find it eye opening (in a good way) to lay all this out.

3. I completely agree never to state the desired number or starting point first. It puts you at a major disadvantage.

[FernTheBrute]

A bit out of topic, but I find absolutly amazing how much software engineers in the US make! Damn, I just make 39K here in Canada. Ok I'm a junior just out of university, but I graduated first of my class, got a lot of offers, negociated a lot and accepted the best offer at 39K. But making a six-figures salary here as a software developper will never happen. A senior can expect to make about 80 K, and only if he's great and essential.

Makes me want to move south.

[mrmr]

In my personal experience, as an HR policy, many companies will have official salary ranges for their various jobs, but they do not actually stick to them.

In two of my early jobs, I was paid more than the company officially admitted to paying people in my position, and was told to please keep quiet about it with my co-workers.

I was also paid a relocation fee by a company that does not pay relocation fees.

A friend of mine was given stock options by Dell, at a time when they Were Not Giving Out stock options to new employees.

If you know what their pay range is, either from their official documentation, or because you have a friend who works there, or because they mention it in the interview process, do not take it as set in stone.

I'm willing to bet that my attitude was part of it, for me. Not in a cocky demanding way, but just letting them know what I expect, and that they won't be disappointed, and that I'm not asking or begging for the salary, I'm telling them what it will take for me to seriously consider their job offer.

[mrmr]

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Well this is a small company, about 45 people, so no salary grades I don't think. I have a feeling they don't use headhunters, but even if they did I don't think I'd have the balls to demand a signing bonus.

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That's why you won't get a signing bonus.

You've got to believe you are worth it, and you've got to ask for it. If you are planning to ask for 10k more, but will settle for 5k more -- which is still really a small pay cut from your old job -- there is no reason in the world not to go with Mark's suggestion. Go in asking for 25k more, and see what happens.

Many people in their every day lives are not used to confrontation, or being pushy about money, and so this whole process is alien to them. But they aren't going to hate you and rescind the offer because you ask for too much. They might say yes, they might offer a compromise, or they might tell you to take the original offer or leave it.

Good luck.

[suzzer99]

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A bit out of topic, but I find absolutly amazing how much software engineers in the US make! Damn, I just make 39K here in Canada. Ok I'm a junior just out of university, but I graduated first of my class, got a lot of offers, negociated a lot and accepted the best offer at 39K. But making a six-figures salary here as a software developper will never happen. A senior can expect to make about 80 K, and only if he's great and essential.

Makes me want to move south.

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Yeah but you get to live in Canada. Sort of like how Santa Barbara pays so cheap. Wait...

But seriously, how do they keep any software developers? Does Canada have no startups? Can anyone confirm Canada pays this bad?

[cwsiggy]

I just got semi-hosed and I need some opinions - I just got an 11%ish raise retro active to 12/05/06 (all paid up) - then I just got "promoted" to another department but HR and my current boss are saying that because I just got a raise and the new job actually has a range that overlaps where I'm at now - no new raise. But.... my curent position gets promoted in 4-7 months.

Should I at least try to find out the range of my new job and fight for some more now and more soon - or just mention that I'd be looking for a very "solid" increase when I'm up for a promotion in 4-7 months?

Bottom Line - I think even though I may overlap the range - I may be near the bottom for the new position and want to get the best bump when the interim position is promoted.

[cbloom]

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A bit out of topic, but I find absolutly amazing how much software engineers in the US make! Damn, I just make 39K here in Canada. Ok I'm a junior just out of university, but I graduated first of my class, got a lot of offers, negociated a lot and accepted the best offer at 39K. But making a six-figures salary here as a software developper will never happen. A senior can expect to make about 80 K, and only if he's great and essential.

Makes me want to move south.

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Really? I'm always shocked at how much non-software developers make. Some SW guy makes $70k but his garbage man makes $60k , the plumber makes $90k , the general contractor makes $150k . I just found out this guy I know who manages an RV park makes $200k !!!

Software is really a pretty [censored] job without much room for advancement unless you start your own company or get lucky at a startup.

[suzzer99]

Garbage man is maxed out there. Plus who wants to go home smelling like [censored] ever night?

Plumber is doing real well for himself. But it's a trade that takes a while to learn with I assume a decent amount of risk and overhead. And again, you're getting into some pretty disgusting situations all day.

General Contractor takes on a huge amount of risk. Clients don't pay all the time, they sue, business dries up, jobs run long, [censored] breaks, etc. etc. That's not a guaranteed $150k by any means.

No clue about the RV guy but that sounds like a sweet gig.

Meanwhile I make $115k to play logic puzzles all day. I'll take it.