Help me to understand PNLH (p199)

[Jzo19]

there's another example on p.226 kjs otb 2 limpers ..check it out

they say u could raise if you think you could make more money by stealing postflop than hitting your target spr , i think most 6max 2p2ers employ this tactic , we raise then cbet and steal on the flop ...

but PNL advocates is an alternative playing style to keep the pot small (high SPR) and not commit yourself with TPGK with a bad SPR ()....edit// they do recommend limping in the KJs hand to keep the SPR high but they say raising is fine if you plan to steal and not commit yourself to the hand if you do hit TP ,)


all this should go in the PNL study group thread

[shyturtle27]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its odd that people can't accept that limping can be good in NLTH. If your table is passive and you are comfortable postflop then limping all sorts of hands from all sorts of positions can be good play.

People get a little stuck on there's one right way to play. There are plenty of players who just love to see as many flops as cheaply as possible and play great post flop poker. To say that every player that limps KQ utg is making a mistake is awfully short sided.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the sort of thinking people should be more inviting of. PNL is providing a new way of thinking from the 2p2/cardrunners standard thinking. Just because limping isn't standard for most players in this forum doesn't mean it's a "mistake". Be open-minded, people. There's more than one way to play poker.

[Sunny Mehta]

Hi guys,

First off, lemme say that I'm pleasantly shocked that OP presented an isolated and unsupported example that very much goes against 2p2 convention, and instead of a thread full of "OMG FLAME FLAME FLAMES", you guys post a bunch of "Be open minded" stuff. What bizarro forum is this?! If the learning environment is typically like this in uNL, we should definitely do the study group here. Kudos.

Okay, on to the hand....

This example is specifically in the section where we are just making a point to show how playing top-pair-type hands play differently when the preflop pot is small relative to the remaining stacks. (i.e. - high SPR)

Obviously it is difficult to explain in one post what this hand is exactly exemplifying (we had 300 pages to work with in the book [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), but the poster who quoted this came closest:

[ QUOTE ]
they say u could raise if you think you could make more money by stealing postflop than hitting your target spr

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom line is that preflop you should be *planning your hand*. That means thinking to yourself "how do I plan on making money with this hand?" Does that mean making a hand and value betting it? If so, what hand are you likely to make? And if you make it, what conditions will be ideal such that you make the most money? If you aren't planning on just winning by making the best hand, are you planning on stealing the pot? If so, is this a good spot to do it? What are your opponents like - do you typically have a lot of folding equity in this game? What conditions will be ideal such that you make the most money?

With specifically KQ UTG - even in a six-handed game - even though I too would probably more often than not come in for some sort of raise, limping is a very interesting and creative alternative given the right circumstances.

It gets complicated to try and tackle all the different possible table dynamics that might influence a decision like that, but if someone wants to toss a couple out there, we can dissect them.

-S

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Triggerle: SPR is a way to link preflop action and postflop action. That example is about creating a SPR by taking one preflop action (limping) instead of another (raising). It isn't just a "post flop example" like you think it is; like the book says "Preflop and postflop play are never independent" (p168). Knock down your mental wall!

Kurto: Ever since I started playing 6max all I've heard was "Never open limp; raise or fold." Now this book presents a different view, one that I've literally never heard advocated by anyone playing at any stakes. I didn't understand the last half of the book very well on the first read through, but I am trying to, so I am looking for help.

Would you open limp KQo there at a table full of unknowns?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. I'm usually totally nitty preflop in early position. If after I've been at a table for awhile and I realize there's little raising preflop, I might start limping with speculative hands in Early Position. Even more so if I see the opponents playing very poorly and calling down with very subpar hands.

That being said, I personally don't usually play KQos utg 6 handed.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
Triggerle: SPR is a way to link preflop action and postflop action. That example is about creating a SPR by taking one preflop action (limping) instead of another (raising). It isn't just a "post flop example" like you think it is; like the book says "Preflop and postflop play are never independent" (p168). Knock down your mental wall!

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right that SPR links pre-flop and flop action.

My point is that when planning the hand your thought process begins even before the cards are dealt. What type of opponents am I dealing with? Will there be frequent raising and re-raising or do they practically never raise? What are their postflop tendencies? How do they see me? and so on...

The example didn't give any of that information and just stated that we limped in order to show how a hand can play out post-flop with a high SPR. It is therefore useless to discuss this pre-flop decision because we have no information to base such a discussion on. Since they didn't specify this initial pre-flop action as standard or recommended (FWIW it could even be a misclick) I'm willing to go with the fact for the example's sake and assume that there was a reason.

[Matt Flynn]

hi all,

the line taken postflop is just standard pot control for top pair. i'd play it stronger much of the time, but my relatively aggro image in 6-max allows me that freedom. if in your games they checkcall two streets with crap and rarely checkraise the turn or lead hard on the river without the goods then you have major incentive to bet the turn too.

preflop point is if you build it you gotta play it. if you get repopped often you'll just fold. if you get 1-2 callers you've got problems if you hit and someone gets aggressive on you.

there are balancing concerns. if you will make more money by stealing the blinds or c-betting when you miss than you lose to aggro players when you are occasionally forced to fold incorrectly, then you prefer raising. (you might still well mix it up a bit to expand your limping and raising ranges.) in many games, especially against passive cutoff/button players who aren't likely to call behind preflop and miserate you mercilessly postflop, that's true so you prefer raising.

another reason to limp is KT and KJ will often limp behind you where they would've folded to a raise. if that's unfathomable in your games so be it and ignore this part of the argument.

the blanket "raise or fold" recommendation is ok as a guideline and wrong as a dictum. sometimes your best play utg is to limp, and same on the button.

i'd rewrite as "every time you consider limping or calling, ask whether folding or raising is better."

matt

[dimeetrees]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its odd that people can't accept that limping can be good in NLTH. If your table is passive and you are comfortable postflop then limping all sorts of hands from all sorts of positions can be good play.

People get a little stuck on there's one right way to play. There are plenty of players who just love to see as many flops as cheaply as possible and play great post flop poker. To say that every player that limps KQ utg is making a mistake is awfully short sided.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im going to have to agree very strongly here, as my live game table dynamics often allow limping and seeing flops and create excellent opportunities to get your money in as a larger favorite by the end of the hand.

[relativity_x]

[ QUOTE ]
100BB stacks
No reads given; specifically says that SB is unknown.

Hero is UTG w/ KQ

Hero limps, BTN limps, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop is K83 rainbow. (4BB pot)

SB bets 3bb, BB folds, Hero calls , BTN folds.

Turn is 4 (10BB pot) (BTW this is a correction of an error b/c in the book it says it is an 11BB pot)

SB checks, Hero checks.

River 4 (10BB pot)

SB bets 9BB, Hero calls

[/ QUOTE ]

Why doesn't hero bet the turn for 5-7 BB? If we're playing at a loose/passive table, that villain very rarely leads river. This means it's heros job to get chips in the middle.

If you bet 5 BB on the turn, then you can bet another 10 on the river and get value from weaker kings or just generally bad players.

Also, I think you need to point out to beginners that if you limp KQ UTG, you must fold it to a raise.

[EMc]

matt, sunny,

Im first off happy that you all feel free to post here and dont ahve to worry about being flamed for disagreeing with conventional 2p2 wisdom. I havent gotten to SPR yet, but from what posts ive read I have a vague understanding of what it is.

That said, according to that idea, this seems like its ok. HOwever, in my (currently drunken) heart, I feel as if this is wrong. I will try to elaborate tomorrow when im a little more coherent, but to me the idea of limping that hand UTG is gonna really place us in an unprofitable situation post flop.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
matt, sunny,

Im first off happy that you all feel free to post here and dont ahve to worry about being flamed for disagreeing with conventional 2p2 wisdom. I havent gotten to SPR yet, but from what posts ive read I have a vague understanding of what it is.

That said, according to that idea, this seems like its ok. HOwever, in my (currently drunken) heart, I feel as if this is wrong. I will try to elaborate tomorrow when im a little more coherent, but to me the idea of limping that hand UTG is gonna really place us in an unprofitable situation post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


sure EMc, happy to discuss all you want.

let's start with this premise: before you act preflop you should think about how you're going to make the most money with the hand and play it accordingly.

if that premise is accepted, then we're discussing under what circumstances you make more money limping with KQ than raising or folding.