lets talk about leaks........

[vmacosta]

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I think I just found another one. I rarely semi bluff or bluff raise the turn/river. How big of a leak is this?

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not *that* big if you're semibluffing and outright bluffing the flop a lot and continuing on the turn.

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I do this a lot. Im more concerned about the fact that when I raise the turn, I usually have the goods.

Basically my problem is that I have trouble finding spots to do it because I think it looks really obvious. The only spot where I frequently raise the turn is vs an aggro sb open in the bb, the flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Ill wait until the turn with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for example.

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not crazy about that bluff. No time to stove but we are probably ahead on that flop so theres no reason not to pump it right there. Plus there are too many turn cards that screw up the action. And sometimes he just gives up too.

I should have said that not semibluffing the turn is ok if and only if you are not waiting til the turn to raise a lot of your high-equity hands.

However you should still be bluffing turn scarecards occasionally cuz you'll be raising them when you actually do hit anyhow. The trick is to get the right frequency because most thinking players know you'll be bluffing those cards a fair amount (see heisenberg's recent thread).

[Heisenb3rg]

Just a clarification, I meant more peeled the flop then picked up draw on turn, as well as turn scare card bluff raises.

One thing ive noticed as I move up in limits though is that the number of "2-barreling always" players have decreased a fair amount. I think because 2-barreling is so important against the low limit fish that it becomes more autopilot for low limit TAGs. (I used to like always 2-barrel a year ago until I noticed some players were owning me at 3/6 with turn check/raise semibluffs and made hands)

Semi-bluffing turns against 2-barrels is much much much more important than against players who check behind a lot of turns.

What costa said is also very true, as a good player you almost never want to be in spots where you are "likely" semi bluffing or are of mediocore strength. So if you are waiting to the turn a lot with your TPTK, then semi-bluffing the turn is more important.

[Heisenb3rg]

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-capping the wrong hands against other lagtags. They will just call with AJ and 77 but cap j9s and A6s, that is so dumb.


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Just want to say that this is an excellent point, but certaintly not always true. It is entirely dependent on the LAGTAG's perception of you , and thus his postflop habits.

If they are going to play back at me no matter what I do postflop cause they think im FOS, then yes capping J9s is retarded and AJ is a good cap.

If they respect my CAP and wont get all hyper monkey resteal mode postflop, then capping with J9s >> AJ because of the high fold equity..
With AJ theres value in letting him having initiative , when we're UI.. And if we hit our pair of aces we miss out on action by capping. With J9s you now have fold equity on the ace..

Substitute this player for hyper resteal ninja spew monkey now , and we get even MORE action on our pair of aces , and we lose most of our steal equity with J9s..

Maybe your definition of LAGTAG = spew monkey though [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Rev. Good Will]

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I think because 2-barreling is so important against the low limit fish that it becomes more autopilot for low limit TAGs.

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Does this mean I am missing out?

I play 1/2 and some 2/4, and only seem to 2 barrel only under certain conditions:

- The turn is a scarecard that hit my range

- If I ever think they villian will peel w/ 2 overs, and fold to a turn bet UI

- When the board pairs on all but the driest, and all but the most coordinated boards.

I was about to do with a disclaimer for what types of holdings I do for this, but mostly I do it with my lower range, as well as my highest unpaired range with a similar frequency (obviously more with highest unpaired range on more coordinated boards, less on drier boards, and vice versa with my lower hand range)

[boc4life]

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Trying to fix some of my "leaks" that people have mentioned from this thread has come with disastrous results

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details, plz. it wasn't any of the "lagtag"-leaks i mentioned was it?

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Wasn't your posts, vma. The main post that seems to have given me trouble was Oink's first leaks post in this thread. After some consideration and thought, I'm now quite sure that I disagree with this point.

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- fold too much. Example: I raise OTB, TAG calls in BB flop comes T32, he c/f. TY IDIOT! (Danza already mentioned this)

Makes it so easy to play against that TAG when he does c/r flops.

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I'm check/folding this flop a decent percentage of the time when I defend from the BB, and I don't consider myself an idiot for it. I consider that a very good flop for you when you raise OTB and I call with something like 75s or J7o or Q8o. No different from when I call with any one of those hands and the flop comes A 6 T.

It's not to say that the only time I'm c/ring that flop is when I fit the flop or anything, either. It just seems very stupid to point to that flop and situation in a vacuum and say that someone's an idiot for check/folding.

In the end, Oink's very persuasive style of writing convinced me to look for spots like that where I would normally check/fold and do otherwise.

Most of this thread has been very good though

[sethypooh21]

I don't think it is a sign of idiocy but check-folding that flop to a LAGTAG steal raise is probably a leak with many holdings. Obviously, the bottom end of your defending range (76o, etc) which flop no-pair/no-draw, you can probably give up, but as much as one over card should really be enough to at least peel there...

[Oink]

Boc.

I am surprised. You dont think there is huge difference on c/f'ing xx on T32 flop and c/f'ing xx on AT6 flop.

I am c/f'ing all those hands you mention on the AT6 flop unless I think that villain really folds too much. Dunno if its a leak but I know its less of a leak than folding them on a T32 flop.

Peeling a lot of those ragged flops makes it difficult for villain to play the turn. Since you should c/r some turns he will have a tough time 2'nd barreling a lot of hands that cant take heat. Then they start checking a lot of hands letting hero see 2 cards for 1 SB with 6+ outs. Sweet!

I think its less prevalent on stars but on Party I get a LOT of free cards when I peel ragged flops.

[boc4life]

Oink,

Obviously c/f is the proper line for the hands I mentioned with the ace-high flop. I'm not calling that a leak at all. I only compared the T32 flop to the A6T flop because I believe they're both similar in the fact that they are bad flops for my hands vs. your range, especially when factoring in position.

I just don't see a lot of value in check/calling these flops. If I'm playing beyond the flop, whether it's with Q8o or A5s or JTo or A3o I'm check/raising. The BB defense section in Stox's book references this stuff. When I get back home later tonight, I'll find it and quote it.


My location which was made as a joke is starting to make more sense, I guess

[yourface]

I find that many TAGs will freeze up on the turn and give you lots of free cards if you peel a ragged flop, especially if you will occasionally take that line with a good pair

vs a good hand reader you are pretty transparent unless you mix it up a lot, but it feels like the majority of TAGs are so used to players who frequently slowplay the flop that they will dish out the free card without thinking

[Oink]

Good points Yourface

If you peel those flops you have to make it tough for villain to play the turn. Start check raising turns if he keeps 2nd barreling air. How the hell is villain gonna continue in the hand with QJ if you c/r a T326 board?


But in my experince at AP and party that isnt neccessary at all. TAGs will check behind the turn a lot and you dont need that check and free river very often to make it profitable to peel with 76 on T32 flop, in particular if you have a bit of a backdoor.