onlide "dating:" interesting article

[Ser William]

Great article. But I wouldn't equate it in any way to "online dating" like OP did in his post. At least with online dating sites both parties go into it with sort of a standard set of rules: written wooing first leading up to an actual physical meeting.

This story was completely different. Audrey wasn't looking for love on the forums she frequented, but it found her. Then she was taken advantage of, although I think the author overlooks the fact that no rational person should ever allow themselves to be taken advantage of in a situation like that. I mean, he blames Janna for everything yet Audrey was the one who TWICE was going to, sight unseen, pick up everything and move across the country to be with someone she had never actually laid eyes upon, with a history of mental problems, and who had just shot himself in the stomach. She divorced her husband over a phantom. What kind of person must she really be? Can anyone here ever conceive of doing what Audrey did?

Truly a fascinating article and a good read.

[Blarg]

You aren't fairly casting the slant of the article, and some others here have done the same. The author in fact repeatedly points out that the fault was not all Janna's, but also Audrey's. He made fun of her and her credulity and her insufferable smug certainty about her deep love over and over.

Another thing you are unfairly discounting is that not only are people not always rational, but often abandoning rationality is part of the charm of infatuation. Letting a "partner" get built up in one's mind can be very gratifying and be a kind of wish fulfillment. Running with that is tempting, because it's so glorious, so thrilling, so refreshing, so bookcover, slo-mo perfect. For people who are very gullible, a little too dreamy or impractical, or harbor some fundamental insecurities they aren't adequately able to compensate for in real life, the draw of the unknown and at that point in time unknowable perfection, the desire for release and the safest of landings, can exert a pull strong enough to imperil good judgment.

A situation with some parallels is how many women are attracted to prison pen pals. The absence of the person, and the inability therefore of the relationship to fail or simply be less than the ideal one makes of it in one's own mind, can not only inspire the bond but lock it in place. Even the most despicable and revolting dirtbags, like Richard Ramirez, with his terrible stench, rotting teeth, and deep sickness, can get huge fan clubs. They exist and persist because people can never really know him, and can create in their minds as exciting and unlikely an image of him, and of a mutual destiny, as they desire. In a sense, he doesn't even exist or have to, because the affair is already complete and in its own way satisfying within the lover's mind regardless of either the nature or accessibility of the beloved. The beloved is actually fairly interchangeable. His importance is as a fantasy, not a reality. His realistic contribution is pretty much nil.

These affairs are retreats into the mind from a less satisfying reality. Sometimes quite unlikely notions (Jesse Jubilee James is a heroic firefighter who for some reason can't meet the woman of his dreams, Richard Ramirez is a great guy if you give him a chance) must be willfully embraced to steady their shaky foundations. For some people, reality is simply not worth it.

We are always living out the repercussions of who we are while trying to create a reality we can enjoy, or at least stomach, living in. Logic is just one option among many, and often by far the loneliest. It isn't unusual to choose something else.

[daveT]

There is a ton of great thoughts here.

Katy:


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I would think men are too visual for online dating to be successful and yet I've heard that it works.

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I don't agree with this. If women were not as visual as men, then all men would have equal success with on-line dating. It has been found that male's with red hair have the lowest success and response rate.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is especially true for men. Many men would never be able to admit to society that they are attracted to "plus-sized women," but many are. I think that OL dating is a good outlet for these men to feel comfortable expressing their true desires.

According to a brothel madam, the best-looking girls are the least used. Men tend to only fantasize about dating the hottest thing on the block, but with ample opportunity to have on, they refuse, preferring to keep it a fantasy.

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I actually know a couple people who have met through online dating. The chemistry and dynamic between them is pretty interesting. I think people should try it and keep a very open mind.

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This would be true. I have had a female pen-pal for several years. The difference is that we met face-to-face first. I think that our "relationship" is unique, as I know a person as few people would ever know a person. Humans to be more honest with each other in writing than face to face. The difference is that the bonds are created first, then you meet, where it usually works the other way around.

MissT:

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I will say that I met my first husband online. Dated for 3 years, married for 5, still friends now.

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I created this post because I do want to hear success stories. I am fascinated by psycho-social behavior. I do not want you to feel threatened by the content of this post. One of my original points was that there is much more bad press surrounding this than good press. I would like to think that there is a good counter-balance to the bad press.

I would like to ask you some questions:

What drove you to join an on-line site? I know that you expect me to think you were desperate, but that is not how I think on this. My first thinking is that you were not able to access men in your own life. I used to take classes where the M:F ratio was something like 1:20. Although I did get hit on often, I constantly deflected them, because I did not want a love life to interfere.

How many attempts did you try before you found the satisfactory man?

What was your first impression on meeting a man that you could not be sure matched the picture, or did you wing it and just pressed on a person with no pic?

Do you think that getting to know a person before you meet face-to-face creates stronger, inseperatable bonds?

The fact that you said:

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it does cause me concern and make me pause when I know that my daughter has a My Space page and is meeting (ie talking too) people from all over the country/world. As a mother, YIKES!

As a grown female, I was/am cool with it, for myself.



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impresses me. It shows that you have an actual thinking brain. I would not think that you didn't, nor do I believe that all OL dater's are spaced out.

Blarg:

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Censored's disappearance, owing a lot of people money, is being discussed in another thread. He knew some of the people in real life, but perhaps not all of the ones he left owing money to. This kind of thing happens more than one would hope.

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This is something that I wanted to bring up in that thread, but I thought is was not the place for it, since it was a polite bashing/ I miss him thread. I only saw his name in passing, and I think very low of him knowing this.

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I've known a bunch of guys who play female characters in MMORPG's, and guys keep trying to court them. Some of them even go so far as to form "relationships" with the guys, for profit or just as a gas.

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It is sad how often this stuff takes place. It is criminal in my mind, and whatever happens to the perpetrator.... If they are stupid enough to give an address and info to where to send money, that's on them.

Chipwrecked:

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As a separate post, I've seen Internet romances wreck two marriages firsthand. Internet is serious business.

I met my wife on the Internet...



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This is The Lounge, and we don't appreciate one-line answers. I pose the same questions to you that I posed to MissT

Slow Play Ray:

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Well I gotta say that is some of the strangest [censored] I've ever read.

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A tad understated, but yea.

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That being said, the situation it is hardly what I would consider routine "online dating".

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I was hoping that this isn't the case. It would be odd to think that the sites stay popular if that was the case.

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I "met" my girlfriend online, but we simply exchanged a few emails to feel each other out, then met at a bar in person and hit it off in a big way. She's gorgeous, smart, and outgoing; our personalities complement each other perfectly, and we keep each other in check. The result would have been no different between us if the bar meeting came before the emails.



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This post was created for you sir. I hope to hear more from you also. I think it is great that you found a gorgeous catch. It is sometimes hard to believe that good looking people use these sites as well.

[daveT]

Slow Play Ray:

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You may be underestimating how often people talk of "loving" each other, with utter seriousness and in a romantic way, over the internet without having met.

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perhaps, but that is still not what i would normally consider "online dating" based on the parlance of our times - more of an actual online relationship i guess, which is more than a bit freaky. christ, i hope this is not what people think of when i tell them i met my girlfriend online!

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Unfortunately, I think that this is what most people think. More so, people probably think that you were one super-desperate puppy, and think better of themselves for never attempting it. I doubt that you would agree with them. I personally see nothing wrong with increasing your chances of a successful relationship.

Solo AJ

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I feel as if I'm totally crazy for thinking that people who "love" each other despite having an "online relationship" for only a month are nuts. Am I?

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I don't see the difference between this and two people who meet and marry six months later. It does show a severe lack of judgement as a general rule. With that said, I do allow that there is a such thing as love on first site, and yes, love on a web-site is attainable, though I don't see it working for me.

The rest of your post is very good, especially:

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Imagine posting this to a forum of people who are incredibly lonely and emotionally unbalanced, or depressed. I would imagine the responses would be quite telling

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Ser William:

The whole story picked on Audrey. The author took several shots at her "love," especially when he talks about how he moved in with a physical woman, to counter Audrey's desire to move to Colorado.

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She divorced her husband over a phantom. What kind of person must she really be? Can anyone here ever conceive of doing what Audrey did?

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No, I couldn't.

With that said, I do live in Los Angeles, and this entire story gives a discomforting snap-shot of our city. People here are very desperate for a ton of things: the big break, a lover, a job. In all of these attempts, we all get royally screwed in several ways. I have seen rich kids come to this city with 10 k and leave broke in less than two months because of a piece of scuzz. It can be hard to balance the vulnerabilities with the realities of the situation. In more than one case, we are forced to sleep with the Devil. Audrey has done this at the beginning by searching from love from a green card marriage. To say that this situation is atypical would be nice. Most relationships are at their base, a matter of convenience.

I think that Audrey wanted a new life, was probably also sick of living in Los Angeles. The story did not end completely bad. It took this experience for her to end a marriage that she was not happy with.

Could I see this happening to some of the people I see in Los Angeles, or anywhere for that matter? Maybe not this extreme, but people do get sick of the day to day rut, and become miserable. It usually takes an extreme action to break free.

[duckman]

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By the way, this could be adapted into a pretty engaging movie, couldn't it?

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Single White Female (Fonda) has some striking similarites.

[duckman]

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I feel as if I'm totally crazy for thinking that people who "love" each other despite having an "online relationship" for only a month are nuts. Am I?

I don't see the difference between this and two people who meet and marry six months later. It does show a severe lack of judgement as a general rule. With that said, I do allow that there is a such thing as love on first site, and yes, love on a web-site is attainable, though I don't see it working for me.


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There is a big difference. You don't need forever to get to know someone. People change anyways as you get older.
I did this and have been married 17 years. Statistics have shown that divorce rates for couples who have lived together previous to getting married are actually higher.

[Blarg]

That's very often probably because there was a reason they didn't get married in the first place, but after a while they did just because their partner(usually the woman) demanded it, or as a sort of convenience or to make things look good for the kids, not because they're really any better for each other. A lot of the time you're probably comparing apples to oranges here.

[duckman]

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That's very often probably because there was a reason they didn't get married in the first place, but after a while they did just because their partner(usually the woman) demanded it, or as a sort of convenience or to make things look good for the kids, not because they're really any better for each other. A lot of the time you're probably comparing apples to oranges here.

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You are the one comparing apples and oranges. That was my point. Statistically length of time in a relationship prior to marriage does not equate to better marriage outcomes. My assertion as an economist is I have never seen any data linking length of relationship and divorce rates. If you have evidence to the contrary - produce it and I stand willing to be corrected.

For instance:
From my grad school

[daveT]

I think that the divorce problem stems from marriages happening too early. The example I give of people marrying 6 months later seems to be most common among younger 20 year-olds. It would take wisdom gained from experience to increase your chance of knowing the right one. For this reason, OL dater's probably have a keen idea of what they are looking for personality-wise, and as we get older, we tend to be less picky about looks. I will posit that the best looking people get married younger than the uglier ones.

There would be a two-sided case if this is true. It is to say that the dating pool on-line is more experienced or not experienced at all, probably a combination of both extremes. The less experienced ones are more vulnerable to manipulation while the more experienced ones are going to find each other and have a better chance of success. For this, I would be willing to state that an on-line couple is able to fall in love quicker, with more surety than two 22 year olds.

Duckman, Blarg essentially proved your point. I have lived with girls that I would never marry. I don't think that many people are able to understand the need to do this. If there was enough pressure applied, I may have taken the dive. This didn't happen to me, but those who fall into a miserable marriage, this is likely what has happened, and their marriage is effectively bound for failure. It is not the fact that they lived together that they are divorced earlier, it is the fact that on person had no initial desire to me married, and they did. It would seem that this is a better statement than saying that because they lived together, they are less likely to make it, though this does prove your argument, but not for the reasons you are presenting.

[Blarg]

I am not arguing with you that it does.

This:

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Statistically length of time in a relationship prior to marriage does not equate to better marriage outcomes


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contradicts this:

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My assertion as an economist is I have never seen any data linking length of relationship and divorce rates


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Apparently you have, or you wouldn't have made the first statement. Or else I misread, as you are talking about length of relationship prior to marriage in the first sentence and omit the prior to marriage part in the second. But alternative readings don't make sense, and at any rate I found this unclear.

What I'm saying is that the observation, and the statistics behind it, are of limited utility as a criticism of people living together first, if that was your intent. Which is usually the reason I see this talked about.

While it shows that living together first won't necessarily make your marriage more likely to last, it begs a few questions. First, that marriage is always a goal in the first place. Second, that the people undertaking living together are particularly the marrying type -- at least to each other. I would find it no surprise that people who are willing to live together for a while without marrying might be doing so because marriage with that person may not be their first choice. Further, marriage may not be something they're very interested in, period.

So when you compare the marriage prospects of people who absolutely want to get married, so much so that they are even willing to do it on blind faith, without living with each other for a while first, with those of people who have already had their chance to consider it and as a result have made it perfectly clear that they do not want to marry someone, you wind up comparing people who are more interested in commitment with people who are less interested in it. Which type of couple stays together longest doesn't seem to be a big mystery.

A more interesting comparison of relationship longevity would ask something like, how many couples who live together for a certain number of years, married or not, manage to do so for a certain number more. 5 years? 10? 20? Whatever. This tests relationship strength under different living arrangements better than plunking the marriage contract into a relationship's span of years like a butcher knife nobody is supposed to mention.

Heck, getting married may actually ruin some long-term relationships because it can fundamentally alter them. It's not necessarily a starting point, or the determiner of what "really" comprises a relationship, at all. Neither is how long you live together before getting married -- if you even do.