Is this a 3 bet?

Tugg · #1 10-12-2007, 01:04 PM

4-8 b&m

Villian is on the Button and has been caught bluffing several times.He usually bluffs flop and sometimes turn, but will give up on river.

Hero is in BB w 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

2 Ep limp, 1 MP limps, button limps, Sb completes.Hero checks
Flop is q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img](6sbs)
Everyone checks to button who bets. Everyone calls(6 BBs)

Turn is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Everyone checks.

River is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets, its folded to Button who raises (8.5BBs). Hero?

Lethe · #2 10-12-2007, 01:16 PM

Weird. It would be pretty bizarre for button to bet the flop and check through the turn when he hit the flush. I 3bet and call a cap, and then stack my chips when he shows a Q or some stupid 2 pair.

GiantBuddha · #3 10-12-2007, 01:20 PM

Just call. I've found a large number of irrational slowplays at live $4/8. By 3-betting, you lose 4 bets to a slowplayed flush, only win 2 bets from a bluff, and gain an extra bet from something like Q4 or 44. I don't see much else he can call a 3-bet with that plays this way. Unless he's the type to call with ten high when he's bluffing just not to be shown up. Gotta love those guys.

*TT* · #4 10-12-2007, 01:23 PM

call. You will likely lose more than you will gain from the 3-bet in the long run because your opponent will fold any bluffs.

gobbledygeek · #5 10-12-2007, 01:28 PM

I think I lead that flop. Against 5 opponents if we get 3 callers I'm thinking we have an equity advantage with our OESD even though there is a potential flush draw out there.

On the river, what are you afraid of now? Button didn't bet the turn so it's highly unlikely he has a flush. Easy easy 3bet, the only question is whether to 5bet if he 4bets (which, honestly, I think I would do).

gobbledygeek · #6 10-12-2007, 01:32 PM

Wow, am I totally off base here? Button could easily have a zillion hands that will call our three bet (a set, two pairs, top pair, etc.) and yet he slowed down on the turn due to being scared of someone having a flush. I didn't even think 3betting was debatable? I guess my 5bet would be super spewy but I'm not convinced yet of that...

ETA: The number of times I've personally seen someone not bet the turn with a flush (even a baby one) when everyone has checked to them at my 2/4 B&M table: 0.

GsuperspewyG

GiantBuddha · #7 10-12-2007, 01:40 PM

This is a very bad draw to lead the flop with, IMO. You have no fold equity, no additional outs, and when you do hit your draw you're very vulnerable to redraws. If you get called by 3 players on this board, you'll very rarely have even 25% equity. Probably closer to 20%.

GiantBuddha · #8 10-12-2007, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ETA: The number of times I've personally seen someone not bet the turn with a flush (even a baby one) when everyone has checked to them at my 2/4 B&M table: 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

They've probably done it, but then they bet the river and everyone folds. I've seen this play a lot more than I would have expected, often out of the delightful sort of player who likes to bluff when they don't have it and check when they do.

Against an opponent that I respected, I'd be inclined to 3-bet because I couldn't see any way they'd check behind on the turn with the made flush. But against a bluffy unknown at $4-8, I expect to see like J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] all day long.

gobbledygeek · #9 10-12-2007, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very bad draw to lead the flop with, IMO. You have no fold equity, no additional outs, and when you do hit your draw you're very vulnerable to redraws. If you get called by 3 players on this board, you'll very rarely have even 25% equity. Probably closer to 20%.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this was a rainbow flop would leading be correct? I sometimes feel I might be overvaluing my OESDs on the flop; I might have to start reconsidering this especially in pots with few opponents (although there are 5 here) and when there is two to a suit on board.

gobbledygeek · #10 10-12-2007, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But against a bluffy unknown at $4-8, I expect to see like J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] all day long.

[/ QUOTE ]

All day long? You and I are playing different games!