.10/.20 pstars

[neurotiq]

I wouldn't donk the flop. I wouldn't check the river.

The rest looks good. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Harv72b]

Check/raising to "trap the field for an extra bet" only works when UTG continuation bets (not always), one or more players call (not raise) that bet (not always), and UTG is then nice enough not to 3bet our check/raise (also not always). While going for the flop c/r is probably the best play here, betting out is not terrible either--especially if we get the chance to 3bet, and even more especially if UTG raises, one or both players call 2, and then we get to 3bet. If nothing else, you should be varying your play from time to time to avoid predictability (not that a lot of your opponents are paying that much attention in these games).

At higher stakes I could see value checking the river to induce a bluff out of a 7 or a lower busted flush draw, but at .10/.20 I think you gain much more value by betting & getting calls from worse hands.

[Douglas Leslie]

I would love to know that UTG had when he folded to the raise on the flop.
I think that you played the hand fine until the river. I would also donk the flop in the hope that UTG might raise with JJ-KK and clean up my ace outs against the two pre-flop cold callers if either of them has AJ or AQ. Why didn't you bet the river?

[Douglas Leslie]

A number of people have suggested checking the flop with a view to check raising here. I would question this. With four people having put in two bets pre-flop, the pot is already large. We should therefore take the line that maximises our winning chances. That means trying to ensure that our ace outs are clean if the diamond flush does not materialise. The best chance of this happening is to donk the flop in the hope that UTG raises and knocks out AJ, AQ or even AK. A check raise (assuming that UTG bets) will not get anyone to fold. If the donk gets raised and there are callers, by all means 3 bet for value.

[Fadook]

GRUNCH:

I don't mind donking the flop. It's a fairly co-ordinated board and you can't be sure that UTG will c-bet if he has overcards.

Turn bet is good, but bet the river. There's no reason to think Button has a better A, and in the absence of information that he will bluff a busted draw, it's better to value-bet.

[tyler_cracker]

doug (may i call you doug? i guess doug isn't a very scottish-sounding name. have you ever seen the cartoon "doug"? i'm not sure if they have nickelodeon across the pond, but doug is pretty cool. i liked skeeter better, though; skeeter is the kind of friend you could trade handjobs with.),

if we bet and utg raises, he always has a better hand than us. getting hu with a better hand is rarely what you want. it's *really* not what you want when you have a draw to the nuts. we want to get as much money as possible into this pot. c/r the field is far and away the best way to do this.

(harv's points are interesting about b/3b. but hey harv, how about c/r/cap! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

[Douglas Leslie]

[ QUOTE ]
doug (may i call you doug? i guess doug isn't a very scottish-sounding name. have you ever seen the cartoon "doug"? i'm not sure if they have nickelodeon across the pond, but doug is pretty cool. i liked skeeter better, though; skeeter is the kind of friend you could trade handjobs with.),

if we bet and utg raises, he always has a better hand than us. getting hu with a better hand is rarely what you want. it's *really* not what you want when you have a draw to the nuts. we want to get as much money as possible into this pot. c/r the field is far and away the best way to do this.

(harv's points are interesting about b/3b. but hey harv, how about c/r/cap! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

[/ QUOTE ]


Please call me Doug. I got my user name and my posting name mixed up when I registered and I don't know it there is anything I can do to change it!

I don't mind being HU with a better hand when I have a good chance of outdrawing it. If UTG has JJ, QQ or KK, I have eleven outs. If he raises AK, my ten gives three extra outs if his hand doesn't improve. I just feel that with eight SBs in the pot already, I want to maximise my chances of winning as opposed to increasing the number of bets in the pot. If I can get someone with AJ or better to fold , I am happy. Betting out also has the advantage of ensuring that the hand is not checked round on the flop, which I would hate to see happen. If I am raised, I am perfectly happy to re-raise if at least one other player stays in. If the pot had not been raised before the flop, I would prefer the attempted check raise line however.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
if we bet and utg raises, he always has a better hand than us. getting hu with a better hand is rarely what you want. it's *really* not what you want when you have a draw to the nuts. we want to get as much money as possible into this pot. c/r the field is far and away the best way to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 9d 8h 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.121% 46.67% 00.45% 462 4.50 { AdTd }
Hand 1: 52.879% 52.42% 00.45% 519 4.50 { AcAs }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 9d 8h 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.778% 52.32% 00.45% 518 4.50 { AdTd }
Hand 1: 47.222% 46.77% 00.45% 463 4.50 { KdKh }

Never underestimate the value of a flopped 4-flush + gutshot hand. And never assume that just because your opponent has the best hand now, you're behind. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Really, we're debating nothing--I think we both agree that our goal is to get as many bets as humanly possible into this pot on the flop. C/r sometimes does that, bet/3bet sometimes does it better, and as is usually the case I think a lot depends on our opponents. On .10/.20 I doubt it really matters which avenue we choose--people are going to peel for 2 bets as easily as 1 pretty often, with anything from 1 pair to a gutshot to a runner runner FD.

[maverickai]

grunching...

very favourable flop for you. nut flush draw with 2 overs, and a gutshot. I might try to cap the flop. but check raising is better you you trap a lot of them for 1 more bet. If you bet, and UTG raise, you might be chasing away those acting behind.

You should have bet the river. Can't miss this value bet! Button totally looks like he's trying for a free card on the turn by raising on the flop.

[McNeese72]

[ QUOTE ]

I lead this flop. Your objective on the flop is to get as many bets in as possible. You have excellent equity here. When the button raises I think I would three bet. One or both of those callers will call two more bets here sometimes and that is good for you.



[/ QUOTE ]

Since the preflop raiser was to your immediate left, wouldn't it be better to check, hope he bets and everybody else calls and then check raising trapping the guys in between. If you lead out and UTG was to raise, then the others would probably fold.

Doc