River Decision in $109r

[Rekwob]

never ever fold this

[DJ Sensei]

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Please post more in this forum DJ.

We're checking preflop because with these stacks he WILL be complete/shoving as a bluff very often. Basically the idea behind completing with these stacks is that raising sets up a pretty good resteal spot for BB, so you complete a bunch with the threat of a complete/shove a very real possibility--that way you don't have to just give up your SB a huge % of the time.

Basically, if we're raising here in the 109R, it's to call a shove. Obv that's annoying because A6o just isn't that strong. If we check, we get paid off well often when we hit our ace, and we get to just check it down/snap off a bluff with A-high a good amount of the time too.

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OK, i'm with you if thats how things go down a lot of the time. And i'd definitely not like to get it in with A6o, even if he's got air much of the time, because AXo is not much of a favorite against anything except a dominated hand with the same X. However, I fail to see how in an aggressive higher stakes tournament, complete-reraising as a bluff is at all a successful play. First of all, you have to balance it by completing huge hands sometimes too. And that just seems terrible, because
a) you give him a free shot to bust you (and no you probably wont get away from that AA/KK that you slowplayed when he hits 2 pair or something on a board that looks good to you, and you're gonna feel like crap afterwards and probably steam off whatever you have left)
b) if the games are so aggressive, then your open raise from the SB will get played back at more anyhow, so you stand a good chance of getting it in as a huge favorite anyhow by just raising it.

I can only see complete-reraise bluffs as a viable move if the BB is always raising your complete with a wide range (seems reasonable) and he also gives you too much respect when you do it (i'm sure there are players like this out there, but not the good ones).

[aejones]

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why arent you raising him preflop? we've almost always got the best hand and i doubt he'll complete-reraise bluff us, why not charge him and maybe take it down without a fight?

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we should be raising this sometimes- i prob raise check almost 50/50. yes, we should for value, it is almost always ahead of his limping range unless he's passive...
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do we stand to make more postflop when we hit an ace because he won't put us on one? seems like a more likely outcome is him stealing the pot, or us winning the same size pot after the flop (but letting him see 3 cards to catch us).


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there is some deception to not raising preflop; definitely. if two players are decent.. there is definitely a bluffy aspect to a-high dry boards in bvb battles short stacked in tournaments. however, the chance that he limp-reraises us with these stacks is something of a moderate fear, and soemthing we probably can't call even if we think he's doing it light.

[Bakes]

a raise pf is not necessary, i mean u flop an ace and second pair is gonna look like the nuts to him. also we blank every flop and get c/r ai a ton too. i think you should call the river, every draw bricked.

[shaundeeb]

I never raise A9o and worse with these stacks pf over a limper deception is way worth more then the times you pick up the competed bet.

[NoahSD]

DJ,
It's a really interesting spot right now and AFAIK people are no where near playing it correctly. I don't really think anyone who's complete/shoving lightly here is also complete/shoving AA here.

I'm pretty sure that's not necessary to play unexploitably, though. This isn't like playing with 100 BBs+ where unexploitable play has to be really deceptive and you should theoretically be able to have a lot of trashy and huge hands in a lot of different spots some % of the time preflop. I really have no idea what the unexploitable strategy would look like in this spot, but I wouldn't be surprised if it involves playing AA the exact same way every time.

[0evg0]

No offense to DJ, but his second post sounds like it came from the NL cash player he is - exploitability is so far down the line of value here.

Also, no one is complete/shoving AA here, and no one is complete/shoving 23o here.

It's that sweet-spot of the top 50% to maybe the top 15% of hands that complete/shoving. And even when you know the range, it's really hard to exploit from the BB.

[sinderg]

seems like a pretty standard call, youve not really told the guy you have a "a" over the multiple draws out there with no raise on the turn. id just expect him to turn over some dead draw, maybe a small pair.