AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats

[Landlord79]

This is an AIM conversation that I had w/ a very well respected high stakes player on Tuesday night. I sent him a screen shot of my positional stats since July 1st, which is only a small sample size of ~12,500 hands. (not enough, I know, but I play Bodog and am limited to 3 tables) I can post that screenshot later if there is any interest, but these were our thoughts on how I play and adjustments that he feels that I may need to make. I highly respect his opinion, but I’d like to flesh out more of the information that was shared w/ me so that I can apply it more fully.

From memory, my button win was noticeably lower than my CO and HJ, as well as my pfr% being lower.

I’d also like to know everyone’s opinion on the blind play that is talked about. What you consider raising hands when limped to in the BB at an avg table, a tight table and a loose table.

Also, any and all advice about playing the button is welcome as I really have a mental block from this position.

The AIM names have been changed for his sake to protect his identity, and I changed mine just so that it would be easier to keep up w/ who’s who. Mine is listed on the AIM thread if anyone is curious enough to look it up.


Landlord79 (9:49:22 PM): positional stats since July 1
Landlord79 (9:49:36 PM): I'm concerned about my button play
ADeepBalla (9:50:03 PM): Uh...yeah
Landlord79 (9:49:43 PM): CO and HJ look great
Landlord79 (9:50:14 PM): I think that I assume people will play back at me for button raising
Landlord79 (9:50:20 PM): or some kind of mental block
ADeepBalla (9:51:50 PM): one sec
ADeepBalla (9:52:25 PM): you are WICKED nitty
Landlord79 (9:52:08 PM): cold calling pf could be a problem, this linked w/ the other stuff from the other pics
ADeepBalla (9:52:49 PM): absolutely
Landlord79 (9:52:34 PM): 18/8 is nitty?
ADeepBalla (9:53:00 PM): limped to you on the button with 77...you raise
ADeepBalla (9:53:32 PM): I'd like to see your PF raise # higher
Landlord79 (9:53:12 PM): pfr has come up in the last month or so
ADeepBalla (9:55:43 PM): my stats on this computer are from 6-handed play...but your net amount won should be increasing as you move toward the button
Landlord79 (9:55:59 PM): yeah, button play is screwed up, I open 33 for a raise UTG, but don't like raising limpers from the button w/ it
Landlord79 (9:56:09 PM): or even 77
ADeepBalla (9:56:35 PM): No no no no no
ADeepBalla (9:56:49 PM): exactly the opposite
ADeepBalla (9:57:07 PM): not on Bodog
ADeepBalla (9:57:44 PM): and quit leading out from the BB when you flop a piece of it
Landlord79 (9:58:46 PM): how do you see that from this one pic?
ADeepBalla (9:59:49 PM): vol put $ in pot is low...10%...went to SD is low 17%...ok...
ADeepBalla (9:59:57 PM): but you lose a lot of money relatively
Landlord79 (9:59:38 PM): i do it, but how do you know that
ADeepBalla (10:00:18 PM): ergo: you lead out when you catch a piece of it but then have to give up when you get resistance
ADeepBalla (10:00:31 PM):
Landlord79 (10:00:36 PM): yeah, fire on uncoordinated boards w/ TP or 2nd pair as long as there are more than 3 other players in the pot
ADeepBalla (10:01:04 PM): no no no no no
Landlord79 (10:00:59 PM): *no more than
ADeepBalla (10:01:40 PM): you are OOP...when you are OOP, you need to be extremely judicious with your bets
ADeepBalla (10:02:15 PM): you can check/call and re-evaluate...if someone improves on the turn and you lose the pot...so what
Landlord79 (10:02:17 PM): if I bet, I don't get any info
Landlord79 (10:02:25 PM): if i don't bet
Landlord79 (10:02:31 PM): *
ADeepBalla (10:02:52 PM): Q7o with Q high flop...you lead out...bad
Landlord79 (10:02:45 PM): dude, I'm gonna argue w/ that
Landlord79 (10:02:57 PM): fire, if you meet resistance, you just shut down
Landlord79 (10:03:02 PM): I"m not playing 5/10
ADeepBalla (10:03:24 PM): 1618 hands say I'm right
Landlord79 (10:03:32 PM): diff w/o blinds is +
ADeepBalla (10:03:58 PM): There's tons of times I fold top pair from the blinds
Landlord79 (10:04:00 PM): sure, but with few opp and a dead board, you should fire
ADeepBalla (10:04:41 PM): raised pot you shouldn't be in
ADeepBalla (10:04:52 PM): unraised pot...YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO HAS WHAT
Landlord79 (10:04:44 PM): yeah, that's been a +EV adjustment that I have made in the last few months
Landlord79 (10:04:57 PM): hence the reason for a probe bet
Landlord79 (10:05:24 PM): if you check, you get absolutely no info
Landlord79 (10:05:40 PM): a LP player will bet a checked pot w/ air often, then where are you at?
ADeepBalla (10:06:06 PM): If you led out from the blinds in a limped pot against me on the button, I'd raise you and you'd be lost.
Landlord79 (10:06:09 PM): you gonna raise a nit like me?
Landlord79 (10:06:14 PM): i only bet w/ the goods
ADeepBalla (10:06:58 PM): I'm just saying, your OOP play looks like an easy leak to fix
Landlord79 (10:06:49 PM): you may be right, I just learn best by arguing
Landlord79 (10:06:59 PM): what are you looking at to see that?
ADeepBalla (10:07:22 PM): It's like AA...you either win a small pot or lose a big one
ADeepBalla (10:08:00 PM): I'm looking at your PF raise #s and your net amount #s. They should be gradually increasing as you move toward the button
Landlord79 (10:08:05 PM): i think the button is my problem here, not my BB play
Landlord79 (10:08:13 PM): you expect to lose money in the blinds
ADeepBalla (10:08:50 PM): And how is it that you only raise 4% of the time from the BB?
ADeepBalla (10:09:02 PM): JJ-AK = 3%
Landlord79 (10:09:02 PM): yeah, I don't like to raise out of the blinds unless I can resteal or I have a big hand
Landlord79 (10:09:17 PM): I like fit or fold from the blinds because you're OOP
Landlord79 (10:09:38 PM): I'll check up to JJ in a limped pot
ADeepBalla (10:10:03 PM): but you're apparently willing to commit $ with 40% of your hands from the SB...in the WORST possible position
ADeepBalla (10:10:37 PM): check up to JJ...no no no no
ADeepBalla (10:10:55 PM): AJs+, 88+
Landlord79 (10:10:38 PM): committing 1/2 a BB with >5 to 1 odds is quite appealing
Landlord79 (10:10:56 PM): why raise and play a big pot OOP?
ADeepBalla (10:11:44 PM): and then leading out when you catch a piece of it in a multiway pot where you don't know what anyone has and you're OOP for the rest of the hand...great
Landlord79 (10:11:26 PM): I love cking AQo in the BB, missing the flop and losing only 1 BB on the hand
Landlord79 (10:12:09 PM): Renton said something about making the pfr 10x BB from the blinds
Landlord79 (10:12:15 PM): is that where this should go?
ADeepBalla (10:12:40 PM): you can fight me if you want...but the numbers are telling me that you need to be more aggressive in position...bet your good hands harder if you're OOP...and your marginal hands less OOP
Landlord79 (10:12:51 PM): i just like to argue to flesh out ideas
Landlord79 (10:13:16 PM): if I just nod my head and say yes, how much do I really learn?
ADeepBalla (10:13:40 PM): limped to me in the BB with TT?...I'm raising and clearing the field
ADeepBalla (10:13:46 PM): AQo
Landlord79 (10:13:27 PM): table dependent
ADeepBalla (10:13:50 PM): same thing
Landlord79 (10:13:45 PM): AQ is a losing hand
ADeepBalla (10:15:19 PM): Ok, listen to me. I don't care what table you're at. Henceforth, you RAISE when you're in position. You raise when you OOP with a solid hand. And you're the nittiest player with crap OOP. You DO NOT get aggressive with crap oop unless you HAMMER the flop.

[effang]

first, this is a mess. it's pretty difficult to read.

second, how did you get a HSP player to analyze your play? You have a coach?

third, thanks for this, it is really great actually once you get through it!

[Landlord79]

[ QUOTE ]

second, how did you get a HSP player to analyze your play? You have a coach?


[/ QUOTE ]

Said in a Marlin Brandon voice, "I know... people..."

I also feel that I'm underrated, I was playign 10NL in Feb and am at 100NL now and should be moving up to $200NL sometime next month and I don't get near the hours or the hands in that a lot of players on this site do.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

second, how did you get a HSP player to analyze your play? You have a coach?


[/ QUOTE ]

Said in a Marlin Brandon voice, "I know... people..."

I also feel that I'm underrated, I was playign 10NL in Feb and am at 100NL now and should be moving up to $200NL sometime next month and I don't get near the hours or the hands in that a lot of players on this site do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, last month I was underrated too. This month I am overrated... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ActionStan]

...snip...
Landlord79 (9:55:59 PM): yeah, button play is screwed up, I open 33 for a raise UTG, but don't like raising limpers from the button w/ it
Landlord79 (9:56:09 PM): or even 77
ADeepBalla (9:56:35 PM): No no no no no
ADeepBalla (9:56:49 PM): exactly the opposite
...snip...

You should listen to him. You don't raise limpers nearly enough on the button if 77 is a marginal hand for you.

[King Spew]

[ QUOTE ]
I also feel that I'm underrated

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are good... and getting better. You have more going for you than you think IMHO.

My only concern is that as you move up, if you don't open up, the better players will shread your WT game.

The 77 hand on the button against limpers is a prime example. The better players will not give you much action in a limped family pot so when you hit your set...... and the percentage of donks lessens as you move up the food chain.

[threads13]

I agree with him for the most part. However, I am not sure what he is saying in his last sentence.

[ActionStan]

...snip...
Ok, listen to me. I don't care what table you're at. Henceforth, you RAISE when you're in position. You raise when you OOP with a solid hand. And you're the nittiest player with crap OOP. You DO NOT get aggressive with crap oop unless you HAMMER the flop.
...snip...

I think he's saying don't bet without 2 pair or better. Top pair isn't good enough. Something along those lines.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
...snip...
Ok, listen to me. I don't care what table you're at. Henceforth, you RAISE when you're in position. You raise when you OOP with a solid hand. And you're the nittiest player with crap OOP. You DO NOT get aggressive with crap oop unless you HAMMER the flop.
...snip...

I think he's saying don't bet without 2 pair or better. Top pair isn't good enough. Something along those lines.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dig that. It is dependent on how many players see the flop and the texture of the flop, of course.

[ActionStan]

That particular bit really hit home with me. I lead way too often with top pair out of the BB in limped pots.