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#41
10-26-2006, 04:45 PM
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Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
[ QUOTE ]
First, whey aren't you betting the turn with AJ? [/ QUOTE ] Because if I am ahead, Villain is almost always drawing to 2-3 outs. If I am behind, I usually get stack-a-donked. No thanks. The only worse hand that calls is a flush draw (and I think that's a loose call from Villain), and Villain is a lot more likely to call a value bet on the river if I check behind on the turn. 
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#42
10-26-2006, 04:47 PM
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Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
Villain played it OK. But I would just lead turn because you could easily have a diamond draw.
Either way he's going to get owned by quadzilla.
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#43
10-26-2006, 04:48 PM
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Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Stack a donk line I've used on soooo many tags and it is a very good play. [/ QUOTE ] Can you please explain the basics of the "Stack-a-donk" line. [/ QUOTE ] Original thread is El D's QQ over Strasser's TT [/ QUOTE ] odd that these are both good players isnt it OP? [/ QUOTE ] Read the (old) thread. D's description of Strassa isn't exactly glowing. Also, D had KK, not QQ, and the board in question was more like 4597 or some such, not J556. Big difference.
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#44
10-26-2006, 04:49 PM
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Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
[ QUOTE ]
That link is not working. Please resubmit a working one. Thanks. [/ QUOTE ] I edited it, works for me now.
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#45
10-26-2006, 04:51 PM
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Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of ass players and some good players who are either on tilt or think their opponent is laggro or are into making a mistake will call the stack-a-donk CR with 1010 or AJ here. I personally hate how he played the hand and I think this is a reasonably point. Still, I think this is a results orientated, semi-brag, "Holy [censored], I hit quads" post. A' [/ QUOTE ] Again, WTF? The line is terrible if I folded K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], because I might bluff the river with that hand. It just doesn't matter that I won this hand. It's way worse if he thinks I am betting with TT (WTF am I betting these midpair hands everyone talked about again? I have showdown value). I am not saying Villain shouldn't check the turn. I'm saying he shouldn't check-PUSH it.
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#46
10-26-2006, 05:00 PM
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Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] the point that merits discussion more here, bilbo, is your lame turn bet. every time i have an overpair/AJ/etc here and a TAGish player 1/2pots the turn, i know i'm beat. too many of you guys go all donkish when you get the absolute or near nuts. you got lucky that he didn't see through your valuebet and stacked himself. [/ QUOTE ] Since I make this bet with a steal, too, or a flush draw, that's perfectly fine. You're saying he folds to this but will call or C/R if I bet $40? That's very illogical. Keep folding overpairs to 1/2 pot turn bets, please. [/ QUOTE ] please, you're not betting 1/2 pot when you float. if you are, then that's fine and my point doesn't apply to you. my point was that many so-called TAGs will pot the turn (or about, say 45 here) with air/nonshowdownable hands but will 1/2 pot (or about, say 25-30) with please-call-me-please hands. obviously this is exploitable. my comment about folding overpairs here was a slight exaggeration, but if you call flop, 1/2 pot turn and then pot river, yeah, i'm done with the hand and you're the one who got screwed since i keep 3/4 of my stack.
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#47
10-26-2006, 05:06 PM
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Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] A lot of ass players and some good players who are either on tilt or think their opponent is laggro or are into making a mistake will call the stack-a-donk CR with 1010 or AJ here. I personally hate how he played the hand and I think this is a reasonably point. Still, I think this is a results orientated, semi-brag, "Holy [censored], I hit quads" post. A' [/ QUOTE ] Again, WTF? The line is terrible if I folded K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], because I might bluff the river with that hand. It just doesn't matter that I won this hand. It's way worse if he thinks I am betting with TT (WTF am I betting these midpair hands everyone talked about again? I have showdown value). I am not saying Villain shouldn't check the turn. I'm saying he shouldn't check-PUSH it. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, you make a decent point overall that I basically agree with. But versus specifically KT diamonds, it's not at all clear that check-call is better than check-push. There's a lot of money in the pot, 11 outs is a lot of outs that you need to bluff an awful lot of rivers to make up for. Plus, results-oriented irony, he'd feel pretty foolish check-calling your river 'bluff' on the river that actually hit. Point being on a different kind of board (more drawy), your turn range should be including more bet/call made hands and more draws, and so stack a donk is more viable even against a good player. Edited to add it's obviously a better line on any board if you potted the turn rather than bet $25, given stack sizes. And that in the posted hand I think check-call is clearly best.
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#48
10-26-2006, 08:25 PM
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Re: Don\'t stack-a-donk the good players, guys
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, you make a decent point overall that I basically agree with. But versus specifically KT diamonds, it's not at all clear that check-call is better than check-push. There's a lot of money in the pot, 11 outs is a lot of outs that you need to bluff an awful lot of rivers to make up for. Plus, results-oriented irony, he'd feel pretty foolish check-calling your river 'bluff' on the river that actually hit. [/ QUOTE ] If Villain can't fold to a big bet on a diamond river, then, yeah, check-calling is probably bad and he should just buy the pot now. It's very hard for me to imagine that I am ever betting a worse made hand on a river diamond, so all he beats is a bluff. On a blank river, however, I could be betting a busted draw. CATerp, Yes, I bet 1/2 pot when I float. I might mix it up a *little* bit in an 80/20 mix (both ways), but certainly not enough for anyone to say whether I am floating or value betting based on the size of my bet. Of course, the board (note, I mean the board itself, not my hand in relation to the board) changes things. On paired boards like this, there are very few made hands that I could hold where I would be worried about pricing out the flush draw. On a 9862 board with a flush draw, I could easily be 3/4-potting it with a set because of the drawy nature of the board, and in that case I would of course also 3/4-pot it if I was floating. Of course, I would very often raise the flop with a set there, but not ALWAYS, precisely because I am mixing it up. I agree that TAGs who always bet 1/2 pot here with monsters and 3/4 pot+ with floats rule are being idiotic.
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