Another "how much do I have to call?" post

[iceman5]

$2/$5 NL live.

A guy loses a large part of his stacks and yells out for more chips. Its like 2-3 hands later.

He raises, gets a call and I reraise. He calls.

The flop comes down and I look at his stack. Theres about $225 sitting there. This guy is a loose cannon and has rebought multiple times. I knew he just rebought, but because hes so crazy, I cant remember if hes already lost more money and is already back down to $255 or if his chips havent arrived yet.

I ask him how much money he has and he doesnt answer but someone else says "$255 its right there'.

I then ask the dealer "how much does he have?". Dealer says something to the effect of "$225 sir, its sitting right there" and he points to the guys stack.

Its very loud and everyone is still yapping about the previous hand that was very big so theres lots of confusion.

I ask one more time how much the guy has behind and again someone says $250 or so. I say, "OK, then, Im all in".

The guy instacalls and says "you know I have another $200 behind right?"

As you can imagine, an argument breaks out. The dealer says I have to cover the $450ish. (Pot is about $225 right now) and I have AQ on a Jxx board.

I remind the dealer that he just told me the guy had $225 and that I asked several times. he says he never told me that so I call the floor over. The floor says "Im backing my dealer"

I guess Im screwed since the dealer is lying and the floor is backing him up, but is there anything I can do or shouldve done?

[djoyce003]

surely someone at the table who was there can speak up right? There's no way i'd pay. They'd boot me, but I wouldn't pay.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
I remind the dealer that he just told me the guy had $225 and that I asked several times. he says he never told me that so I call the floor over. The floor says "Im backing my dealer"

I guess Im screwed since the dealer is lying and the floor is backing him up, but is there anything I can do or shouldve done?


[/ QUOTE ]

You could ask for the supervisor (if this is a large room). I would again say this falls under the gross misunderstanding of the amount of the bet.

I remember a case where I recommended that a player be refunded his tournament entry becasue of something similiar. The player is looing for something under the table he dropped. The dealer starts yelling that it is up to him, he says "I call" and gets up and throws in the amount of the BB. There had been a large raise in front of him. He says "I don't want to call that, I didn't know there waise." The tournament director (at the time I held the position of tournament coordinator) comes over and rules "he said call, he has to call" the call took all his chips. I saw him storm out and ask the director what happened, I fealt really sick after he told. A little while later the casino shift manager comes into the tournament room looking for the TD. He was out of the room, but I asked him what was going on. He told me this guy's story also. I explained to him that yes, the TD was fairly inexperienced and made a bad decision that we should go ahead and give this guy some if we can as he was a frequent player that never tries any sort of angle, he just got a really bad decision (I don't remember the buy-in of the event, but it was in probably a $220).

[iceman5]

There was alot of talking and arguing going on about the last hand so most peopel werent paying attention. There were 2 guys watching the hand. One of them I had just busted and apparently pissed off. He told the floor that the dealer said the guy had another $200 behind (which if he did, I sure as hell didnt hear it and believe me I was listening intently because I was confused as to how much villain had). The other guy was the 1st player who piped in and said that villan had $225, but he suddenly went mute when the floor arrived.

I was running over the table and had like 5 buy ins on the table so I dont think anyone felt bad for me and they just let me get ram rodded.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
but is there anything I can do or shouldve done?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. You weren't sure if he was playing 'behind'. Ask that. Don't ask 'How much does he have there?', ask 'Does he have chips coming?'. It is easy for your question to be interpreted as 'How much chips are there?' rather than 'What is the total amount of the chips there plus whatever he is playing behind?'

2. Several times in the story you mention "someone said he had...", like that is relevant. Never let what others say influence your decision. Your opponent and the dealer are the only ones that matter. "someone" is usually a bad source of accurate information.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
(which if he did, I sure as hell didnt hear it and believe me I was listening intently because I was confused as to how much villain had)

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean, "if he did"?
Did a chip runner show up with chips and did he pay for them?

[iceman5]

If you reread my post you'll see that the "if he did" part is in reference to the dealer saying that villian had another $200 behind.

A player told the floor that the dealer DID tell me that villain had another $200 behind. I said "if he did" (meaning the dealer) tell me, I sure didnt hear it.

Yes a chip runner showed up and yes villain paid for chips, but he was spewing them left and right and I didnt know if he had already gotten them and lost some of them or if he hadnt gotten them yet. I was confused enough that I asked multiple times and theres no way I wouldve gone all in until I was told that he only had $225.

Villian was quite the donk and was raising anywhere from $20-$80 blind about twice a round.

I asked about his stack size enough times that the dealer was getting annoyed with me asking the same thing over and over. Finally I said, "in that case , Im all in"......and suddenly the villain now has an extra $200 coming. I swear it was very strange.

Thanks for the advice. I wont make this mistake again.

Results.....this pot was raised and reraised but villain still instacalled this $425 all in on a Jxx flop with J9. Turn was a Q and all was right with the world since I had AQ until the river was a 4th heart. He had one and I didnt. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Yet another dealer who isn't concerned with maintaining the integrity of the game. Seems after asking several times it might dawn on a modestly competent dealer that you'd mention the chips that were playing behind. Plus the player was probably shooting an angle, an angle which was allowed to succeed here.

Well you are screwed if the floor didn't fix this, as even bad decisions are final once the next hand has begun. I would certainly bitch a bit tho, plus I'd never tip that dealer or that floor again.

Sounds like you should just kick 'em all in the nuts first and sort 'em out later when you're playing there.

Al

[iceman5]

As you said there wasnt much I could do, but when the hand was over I just sat there. The floor was still standing there as the hand played out because I was pretty hot.

Floor...."you lost sir."
Me......."Im well aware of that, I mucked didnt I?"
Floor....."so pay up".
Me........"take the chips, your ruling was wrong, Im not giving him my chips"
Floor....."Im not allowed to touch your chips"
Me........"Well, we have a problem then because Im not giving him my chips"

Then he reached down to my stack and took the correct amount of chips and paid the guy. I knew he was going to do that, I was just making a point, since there was nothing else I could do.

Ive had no other problems at this card room before or since.

[GTL]

i have a feeling you kept pointing at the guys stack and asking how many chips the guy had there. the dealer and table probably thought you kept asking how many chips the guy had on the table. did the guy announce that he was 200 behind when he bought the chips from the runner?

i feel like the guy is shooting an angle but that the dealer probably misunderstood your questions.