NL Bots on Full Tilt

[KurtSF]

Cliff notes of my own post. Questions for nlnut:

1. Picture of the room you all play poker in please.
2. Why did you not play together yesterday? Who found this thread and when?
3. Without sharing the exact strategy, what were the criteria you used to determine your action on the river?

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">@ everyone else:</font> -- here's my contribution to this thread. My first reaction to the post-flop #s is similar to most people's...that degree of conformance seems extraordinarily unlikely if these are 3 different humans. But there IS one more test we might consider running &gt;&gt; Ask yourself this: what's the single most rigid known "system" in modestly wide use today? A: shortstacking! In fact, I shorstacked for around 10K hands myself when first learning the NL game (as a LHE convert). But some people make a damn art out of it...so what we need is for a full-time NL shortstacker to take a large sample of hands (I'd settle for whatever you've got, be it 40K or 200K), and break them into 2 or 3 subsets (how you would do this? there's prob a more elegant way, but u could just start by grouping a couple of months together -- something like Jan+Apr+Jul+Oct vs. Feb+May+Aug+Nov vs. Mar+Jun+Sep+Dec). Then post here with the same stats that have been used to indict NLnut -- I'd like to see whether the sort of rigidity that NLnut claims is achievable with discipline can be approached using the most rigid single "System" known to be used on a modest scale.

[/ QUOTE ] If anybody in this thread is thinking clearly at this point its Teddy. So can a shortstacker post a breakout like this. I am genuinely curious to see the results.

[drtofu66]

If the OP's premise is correct, they were using bots primarily but perhaps observing for any gross exploitation and going manual when they feel that the bot is being exploited.

If the group's premise is true, they are perfectly playing a tight, rigid, low-variance system and pause to discuss hands between themselves when things don't go as planned. Perhaps there is a 'sub-system' for this exception handling, but nonetheless, these special cases occur so infrequently and/or they consensus respond to them with such consistency that their stats do not skew because of them.

In any case, the group maintains that their stats are so similar (some would say identical) because they play this rigid system perfectly and their group mentality keeps them focused and avoiding crippling risks. [It seems to me that making +EV monetary decisions have little to do with keeping stats like post flop AF and river betting/calling so consistent, but putting that aside...].

Can we assume that (if the pro-bot contingent is correct), they are not using the bot currently or have severely curtailed its use due to the publicity their screennames have gathered? If so, if one were to datamine or play with them over each accounts' next 100k hands their stats should show an appreciable difference amongst one another.

This doesn't prove anything if they are using some offline bot (ie a seperate computer to make the decisions but manually entereing them-- which I guess isn't against the T&amp;C) or are able to use a bot undetected by FT which is what the pro-bot side may counter with. But I don't think that side is ever going to be truly convinced.

I know I'd be interested in seeing where their stats are over the next 100k hands. My setup at home is ancient and I'm not the best stats person. Any takers? OP?

[Hellmouth]

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[ QUOTE ]
I'll say it again...

In what form is this "playbook" is it on a computer or something like a printout? Simple question that doesn't involve releasing any "strategy" info.

[/ QUOTE ] neither. its all memorized. However, we did first construct it on paper.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way that stats could be that similar is if you have an exact set of criteria. You claim to have written it on paper. You have an algoithm that is so simple that it can be followed without question.

1) Lets see it. You should be able to furnish it from memory without any difficulty since you play by it always.
2)Let someone else play by it and see if they can get the same stats independantly.
3) Is this not the exact last step before a bot is programmed? Exact algorithmic criteria for play? If this can be done than a bot could easily be programmed with the same criteria. This paradox that you have exact criteria but it would be impossible to program a bot to do it, combined with the stat evidence is enough for me to be very suspicious.

Lets see the proof. Pics of the sweatshop setup please.

Regards,
Greg

[aszmel]

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This IS a HUGE ISSUE and Full Tilt has to handle it very delicately.


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IOW they would have to admit that either they [censored] up or didn't care, and even though it is likely the latter no way would they ever say that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It could be the way banks never admit their systems were compromised, but considering pokerroom (when the case is that we, players, thru PT stats can detect weird things) it would be better for FTP admit they [censored] up, they should realise that now is the battle for keeping players play at their site

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Also, bring Thor back! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]



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In about 2 months time new victorious photos of him will be published, then I will change [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

[nlnut]

[ QUOTE ]
so do all of you live together?

or...spend like 6+ hours daily at someones house? or what?

I'd assume you don't have much of a social life then?

[/ QUOTE ] were all just friends. we don;t live together. Our social life is online poker. We have fun together. Kinda like how live is a lot more fun than online.... because there is interaction....we interact with each other.

[entertainme]

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I suspect that the button presses are being done by a human. It could be a script telling them the proper move, very easily, but the fact that FT cleared them and their apparent lack of scale leads me to believe this.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading this entire thread, this is my deduction from the evidence and the response from the players.

They do have 3 people signed in. They have an automated script running dictating action on every street. The human then clicks the button.

This allows them to be exonerated by FTP for botting.

The statistics say it's a computer making a decision. The fact that they're able to fly under the radar says it's a human clicking the button.

Chuck can admit to everything here except the script running because it would violate the T&amp;C.

The Poker Mom

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I'd be interested in seeing where their stats are over the next 100k hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Somebody needs to mine them from here on out.

[ianisakson]

i think the only way nlnut and BJ can flush all of our allegations away is come out with some proof. prove to us your system is legit and we'll back off. pictures, show us some stats from your PT database, assuming you have one. Do something to prove your innocence instead of just lying and telling us we're wrong.