What would you do? - Page 3

RR · #21 10-30-2007, 05:54 PM

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Rick's right about these things becoming a clusterfudge. All it takes is one person screaming "misdeal!" and throwing in his cards for all the bad hands to do the same. I'm vigilant about being clear of it not being a misdeal when I see this potential. As stated above, I'll quickly and quietly muck a hand dealt to a dead spot, but if someone has an extra or not enough, I'll immediately call the floor and let everybody know it's not a misdeal, to just sit tight.

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Where it really becomes a problem is someone with a bad hand yells "misdeal" throws their cards in and encourages other to do the same. Experienced players know to hold onto their cards, but inexperienced players often fold in the confusion.

Rick Nebiolo · #22 10-31-2007, 03:25 AM

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Rick,
What is your opinion on action being able to occur before the dealer has completed dealing. The messiest situations I have seen involve someone in late position speaking up as soon as their is a problem, but the players up front have already acted before the dealer is done dealing.

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Usually the "action" is bullet fold, bullet fold, perhaps one more bullet fold, then the mistake is discovered. In this case it's pretty easy to rule it a misdeal without getting much flak from the players.

OTOH I've never seen (or perhaps my aging mind can't recall) a situation where there was real action, e.g., UTG raise, UTG+1 reraise, mistake discovered. In this case my opinion is that the hand should play (since the action is very substantial) and if possible (let's say a card is missing from the player who called attention to the mistake) he should get another card. But it may end up as a clusterfudge. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Rick Nebiolo · #23 10-31-2007, 03:34 AM

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Rick's right about these things becoming a clusterfudge. All it takes is one person screaming "misdeal!" and throwing in his cards for all the bad hands to do the same. I'm vigilant about being clear of it not being a misdeal when I see this potential. As stated above, I'll quickly and quietly muck a hand dealt to a dead spot, but if someone has an extra or not enough, I'll immediately call the floor and let everybody know it's not a misdeal, to just sit tight.

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My over under for the number of dealers working in LA who would be capable of doing it this way is 3. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Rick Nebiolo · #24 10-31-2007, 03:42 AM

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This is a case where I don't agree with Robert's rules on what's a misdeal. In tournaments, yes, because that's a special situation, but I think his rules for misdeals go too far for cash games.

In my room, if I deal in a player who shouldn't get a hand or deal in an empty seat, I just muck the hand. Usually it's noticed before the second card comes around, but I complete the deal as if the player were getting a hand, and then muck it. If you call the floor over, that's exactly what they'll tell me to do.

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Despite the impression one might get from the long winded post I made earlier in the day I agree 100% with this approach and wish the rules would be so modified in LA.

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To go even further, if someone only gets one card, I'm to finish dealing the hand and then give one off the top. I don't mind that one either, but it has far more potential to annoy people. Oddly I had one situation where a higher limit player was in a lower limit game and he got genuinely upset that the proper order of the cards was ruined and that it should be a misdeal. Why he couldn't just pretend that we already had the re-deal, I don't know. (Since many people had different than the cards they "would have" gotten anyway, isn't that like a re-deal?) Me, I don't believe in magic and fairies.

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The people it usually annoys the most are the people we should most want to gamble with. Which is why "maintaining the order of the cards" is important in all sorts of rulings. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Anyway, good post!

~ Rick

SellingtheDrama · #25 10-31-2007, 08:59 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
Rick,
What is your opinion on action being able to occur before the dealer has completed dealing. The messiest situations I have seen involve someone in late position speaking up as soon as their is a problem, but the players up front have already acted before the dealer is done dealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually the "action" is bullet fold, bullet fold, perhaps one more bullet fold, then the mistake is discovered. In this case it's pretty easy to rule it a misdeal without getting much flak from the players.

OTOH I've never seen (or perhaps my aging mind can't recall) a situation where there was real action, e.g., UTG raise, UTG+1 reraise, mistake discovered. In this case my opinion is that the hand should play (since the action is very substantial) and if possible (let's say a card is missing from the player who called attention to the mistake) he should get another card. But it may end up as a clusterfudge. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

~ Rick

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I can recall such a situation from the last month or so.

First hand of MTT. Table has several dead stacks, including UTG. Dealer deals ten hands, then mucks absentees. While he's mucking the cards, UTG+1 raises from 7 seat. Folds around to BB in the 5, who turns around from BSing with his buddy to discover one card.

jeffnc · #26 10-31-2007, 09:12 AM

It annoys me when people are constantly calling for misdeals because they think the cards have to come "in a certain order". Like if a guy got dealt in by mistake, then they're getting 2 different cards than they would have. So what? These are the people who think that burn cards are important because of the order of the cards - they don't have any clue why cards are even burned to begin with. (You can tell they have no clue because these are the guys in home games who lay out the turn and river cards face down when the deal the flop, to save time.)

Rick Nebiolo · #27 10-31-2007, 07:22 PM

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First hand of MTT. Table has several dead stacks, including UTG. Dealer deals ten hands, then mucks absentees. While he's mucking the cards, UTG+1 raises from 7 seat. Folds around to BB in the 5, who turns around from BSing with his buddy to discover one card.

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I assume the ruling was that the BB's hand was dead. Correct?

Mr Rick · #28 11-01-2007, 09:02 AM

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It annoys me when people are constantly calling for misdeals because they think the cards have to come "in a certain order".

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You should play Blackjack for a laugh.

I was sitting with a high school math teacher who was berating another blackjack player for hitting when he shouldn't have and ruining the deck for him (the teacher). I had to verify that he was indeed a math teacher. He said he was and asked "why?". I was hard pressed to make something up - so I just said "seriously..."

SellingtheDrama · #29 11-01-2007, 09:04 AM

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First hand of MTT. Table has several dead stacks, including UTG. Dealer deals ten hands, then mucks absentees. While he's mucking the cards, UTG+1 raises from 7 seat. Folds around to BB in the 5, who turns around from BSing with his buddy to discover one card.

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I assume the ruling was that the BB's hand was dead. Correct?

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Nope - because it was deemed his fault that the hand was mucked (he was facing away from the table until he was told it was his action), he was given the choice of playing with one card or folding.

KenProspero · #30 11-01-2007, 09:42 AM

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Nope - because it was deemed his fault that the hand was mucked (he was facing away from the table until he was told it was his action), he was given the choice of playing with one card or folding.

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Since you need to show two cards to win (or is it a different rule in Tourneys) BB would be pretty foolish to play under any circumstances (grin)