questions from Stud/8 newb

[Truthiness24]

I've just moved to LA and I see the need to learn Stud/8 so that I can play in the mixed games here without losing my shirt. I've played a lot of O8, but no stud since college, and then it wasn't of the competitive variety.

Anyway, here are some hands from today (practicing at low limits online) and some questions. I appreciate any input as I try to improve.


#1: At what point am I to realize that this is no good?
Villain had been aggressive & was possibly stealing.
7 Card Stud High-Low ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___raises

4th Street - (5.40 SB)

Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.70 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (5.70 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (7.70 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (9.70 BB - $19.40)

#2: this isn't a hand but a question ... when you are dealt a hand like (75)7 suited, do you want to narrow the field or play it multiway? I have read that this is premium or close to premium, and I am wondering whether you play it like a drawing hand (try for a larger field) or a made hand (narrow the field). What kinds of hands do you like to take to heads up?


#3: In retrospect, 6th was atrocious. Can I call 7th here or is it a lost cause?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (4.40 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.20 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks

6th Street - (3.20 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

River - (5.20 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (7.20 BB - $14.40)

#4: This one was probably a bad idea but I was experimenting. Is it ever a good idea to push a high like this to try to get to heads up? Will good players simply call you down to make their low? What are the percentages for making a low from a dealt 3-low?

(Am I at least asking the right questions?)

7 Card Stud High-Low ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (6.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (5.30 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

6th Street - (5.30 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises to $0.85 (all-in)

River - (10.40 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___all-in

Total pot: (10.40 BB - $5.20)

[benneh]

hand 1:

your hand on third isn't COMPLETE trash, but it is pretty bad. i don't mind seeing 4th for just the completion, but raising seems a bit silly, especially heads up. even if he has trash in the hole, if his cards are even relatively live, you're almost even money to win the hand. your raise doesn't accomplish anything here. the rest looks pretty standard except for the river. check behind here because you're not folding better hands. if villain has a low, it's better than yours, and he's not going to call with a high hand worse than 3s. 6th street is good, i always bet here in case i hit my 4.

hand 2:

I usually muck something like 7(57) unless it's short handed, but i'm not raising to limit the field. i want to see 4th here cheap. this is not at all a "premium" hand. in general, most pairs without an ace kicker aren't worth playing aside from Jacks and bigger, but i often muck jacks for no bets if there is an ace or king behind me.

hand 3:

6th isn't atrocious, but i probably fold here. villain is letting you know he's got his low, and you're pretty much drawing to the 5 to chop, although 2 pair might be good for outs. river is a clear fold imo. not enough money in the pot to justify calling with one of the worst lows against this board. i like how you played the hand up to 6th. (it wasn't atrocious, but i fold)

hand 4:

you played fine. you just got too many callers, you want this hand heads up or 3 way. you shut down at the right time and made the right fold. i call down if i get 2 pair on 5th or 6th, but that may be a leak of mine in multiway pots like this.

[benneh]

where and what limits have you found stud 8 spread in LA? or is it only in the big mixed games?

i really would love to play stud 8 live (the looseness of live players coupled with stud 8 seems too good to be true, although the california rake would certainly suck). doesn't seem very likely though, as i'm guessing all the games are like 50/100 or higher out here, lol.

[Alchemist]

Hand 1: Even if he'd been stealing I'd probably still just call. You still have just a pair of 3s and he's probably not folding anytime soon. The rest is ok given the description of Villain.

(75)7 is not a premium hand. It's an ok hand that I will usually play for for the BI as long as no 7s are dead. I might also let it go if a lot of babies limp in in front of me.

Hand 3: I would call 6th and the river. There's a decent chance your Sixes or low is good. His check showed weakness on 5th. Of course he could be slowplaying a wheel but that's how I'd play your hand.

Hand 4: I almost never play big pairs (Nines-Kings), especially if I expect a multiway pot. As far as I can tell this hand looks fine, although I wouldn't like Seat 3 catching the Ace. Gotta love Q2 and 9J calling 3rd and 4th though.

[Truthiness24]

Thanks for the help. This brings up a couple of more questions.

#5: If (75)7 isn't a premium hand, then what is?
* three suited babies
* pairs 8 or lower with an ace, preferably suited
* three low cards to a str8
* aces with any low card

That seems to be maybe 15% of starting hands. What other hands are playable?

#6: What is role of the amount of the ante? In this 1/2 game with a 20 cent ante, there seems to be a lot of incentive to call the competion with subpremium hands. I need help with my range in cold-calling/calling from the bring-in type situations.

#7: I see some starting hands in this board referred to derisively as "razz hands," which I interpret to mean a hand that sets up to win low but has little or no hope of winning high. Are these hands of similar usefulness to (KJ)K, for example? Are there times to play this sort of hand multiway or is it leaky to try?

I lost $4 in that session over 80 hands, which is acceptable for what I was trying to accomplish.

[Truthiness24]

I'm "in training" to play the 20/40 mixed games in town, and above. I'm not going to try until I feel pretty comfortable about it, even though right now I'm probably better than half the field at this game just based upon general poker knowledge. Being better than half the field isn't a sufficient edge to play at those stakes.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]

* pairs 8 or lower with an ace, preferably suited

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes playable, but decidedly not a premium hand. Rolled-up trips are the best starting hand.

I don't change my hand selection much at all from high-ante to low-ante games. If the game is loose, the bottom line is that you need to show down the best hand in order to win. If the game is not loose, I'm playing hold'em.

Both razz hands and high pairs can be OK in the right spots. The high pairs really need to be heads-up or maybe three-way. Most of their value comes from scooping when the low hands bust out. If you're against four low hands, it is not to be expected that they will all bust. Something like 742 is OK if it's cheap or you're pretty sure you've got th best low working. You're not that strong for low and you have no credible draw for high. 753 is a significantly better hand, although certainly not an automatic play.

[Andy B]

Unless one hand sets up another, please post one hand per thread. If there is significant discussion, it can become confusing to know which hand someone is talking about.

First hand, I probably don't bother with the posturing on third street in a $1/2 game. $1/2 on-line may not be the best place to learn how to beat a live $20/40 game. Beyond that, I don't see anything I'd do differently, although you might check the river.

(75)7 is not a premium hand. I like it multi-way for a limp if people will pay you off when you hit your door card. Otherwise, I prefer it heads-up, preferably against a weak low or a weaker high hand. Buying the antes would be ideal for this hand, actually.

I don't think the 864[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hand was that bad. I would probably bet fifth. The other guy may be sandbagging with a monster hand, but at $1/2, he's more likely to have crap. You've got a low draw, a double-belly straight draw, and a back-door flush draw. If it's not worth a bet, it's certainly close. The call on sixth is a little dubious, but there really isn't any reason to believe that the other guy has much. You have everything working for you that you did on fifth and you've picked up a pair. Calling can't be that bad. The Trey wasn't quite what you were looking for, but you could be sweeping this puppy for all you know, so you have to call.

On the last hand, you should probably fold third. Jacks suck. I also wouldn't bet into 23 people on fourth. Definitely fold sixth.

[Truthiness24]

Again, thanks ... but I'm still at a bit of a loss. The hands that I see as playable under all conditions seem to be only about 15% of the total. Is this a similar distribution as in HE, where perhaps top pairs, AK, AQ, and maybe KQ and AJ are almost universally playable? Most of the stonger Stud/8 games that I see have a 4th St. % of 30-38. Is it too many to see 4th street on 1/3 of your hands? Is the gap between 15% (hands that are premium or close to it) and 33% (what really seems to happen) explained by the forced BI and various limping and/or stealing situations?

I think I get it, I just want to make sure that I'm not missing something.

[chillrob]

How did you come up with the 15%? I think the normally playable hands is much higher than that, going by what Ray Zee's book suggests.