RYANCMU teaches struggling NL50 and NL100 players

[AceHigh]

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I'll elaborate more later.

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I'd like to hear more on this subject.

I think it is one of the toughest situations, when you are out of position and you missed the flop.

If your opponent is a nit, you can just check/fold, but if they are loose and there are draws on the board how do you play the turn and river out of position?

Also do you try to balance your play by checking the turns with your strong hands after cbetting the flop? I sometimes do this but there are so many more weak hands than strong ones I don't know if it's worth it.

[Specialwon]

Hi Ryan, great thread and thanks for taking the time.

Just a question following on from the AQo discussion earlier. I was pretty surprised you 3bet this so often, I usually do the opposite and 3bet about 15% of the time, fold the rest. Here's why, maybe you can tell me where I'¨m going wrong.

You're assigning a hand range of ATo+, 98s+,22+. I assume you're also including at least A9s+ for the complete range, tho maybe not KJs.

That's about a 13% pfr range, against which AQo is a very slight favourite, around 50.5%. So, I can see why it makes sense to 3bet that range with these cards. But I just wonder whether you're being a bit optimistic with your ranging.

I've been doing some work on my own 3 bet range recently. I play Ongame 50NL, which is 10 handed.

The average stats for all players over about 60k hands is about 18/7. Average for regulars with 500 hands or more is about 15/7. It's very unusual to see a pfr of more than 10, in fact I am one of the most aggressive with an average PFR of just under 11.

Adjusting for position, my pfr never really goes over 10 earlier than CO and I am unusually aggressive. I would say the typical range is probably about 8% at most, which is more like 88+, AJs+, QJs+, KQo+. Against that range, AQo is a 48% dog.

So, my 3bet range here is really just AA-QQ, AKo, AQs+.

Are we comparing apples and pears, am I being too conservative, what do you think?

[RyanCMU]

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Hi Ryan, great thread and thanks for taking the time.

Just a question following on from the AQo discussion earlier. I was pretty surprised you 3bet this so often, I usually do the opposite and 3bet about 15% of the time, fold the rest. Here's why, maybe you can tell me where I'¨m going wrong.

You're assigning a hand range of ATo+, 98s+,22+. I assume you're also including at least A9s+ for the complete range, tho maybe not KJs.

That's about a 13% pfr range, against which AQo is a very slight favourite, around 50.5%. So, I can see why it makes sense to 3bet that range with these cards. But I just wonder whether you're being a bit optimistic with your ranging.

I've been doing some work on my own 3 bet range recently. I play Ongame 50NL, which is 10 handed.

The average stats for all players over about 60k hands is about 18/7. Average for regulars with 500 hands or more is about 15/7. It's very unusual to see a pfr of more than 10, in fact I am one of the most aggressive with an average PFR of just under 11.

Adjusting for position, my pfr never really goes over 10 earlier than CO and I am unusually aggressive. I would say the typical range is probably about 8% at most, which is more like 88+, AJs+, QJs+, KQo+. Against that range, AQo is a 48% dog.

So, my 3bet range here is really just AA-QQ, AKo, AQs+.

Are we comparing apples and pears, am I being too conservative, what do you think?

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You need to think about it this way...

If they are opening lets just hypothetically for arguments sake 10%, yet, are only calling my 3bet w/ 4.5% of their range. We have shown a profit the times they have folded that 5.5% that is in their opening and then folding range.

Ok, but, wait, the hands they are calling w/ have my AQo crushed from an equity standpoint? Yes, this is true. However, lets now move onto the flop.

Think about how often post flop they will be folding to a c bet from us? It's very hard for them to play their limited range post flop vs us, they basically have to make a strong hand to continue or have their premium/upper end pair still be feeling comfortable. How many times are they forced to fold AKhi to our cbets, what about JJ on a Khi board? See what I'm getting at?

And now back to ranges, if we have a wide 3betting range, and they have a narrow 3bet calling range. It's going to be very hard for them to know where they stand post flop vs us.

If they do have a hand and they play back at us, it's easy for us to know where we stand vs their range, since so many regulars and TAGs play so honestly post flop.

Notice how our hand strength has not even been relevant yet? 3betting and aggression is about more then just how your range stacks up vs theirs.

[RapidEvolution]

Thanks Ryan! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I am new to 50NL so I'll probably be reading here like...every 5 minutes. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I'll mail you some food as thanks!

[RyanCMU]

Getting maximum value vs donks & not being a total pansy on turn and river.

There are sooooo many horrible players at SSNL, and these players are paying off w/ so many marginal hands...

You need to get comfortable trying to get 3 streets of value w/ lots of your hands vs these players.

This means, STOP CHECKING THE TURN THROUGH so much. People way to much at SSNL check the turn through under the guise of "pot control." The players are horrible for the most part, load up the bus to valuetown and maximize our profits.

Learn to bet the river more also, you need to learn to be valuetowning marginal hands on the river.

Lern how to hand read better, put your opponent on more accurate ranges, valuetown your hands vs those ranges. It's simple, yet so many players don't valuebet thin enough or near enough in general at SSNL.

I know this is broad and general... But all you need is to hear it once, then work on it on your own. So next session you play, look for more opportunity's to be getting maximum value from your hands.

Alternately, think of creative lines where you ca extract post flop more... Vs. bad players your concerns should be how do I get the most from my showdown worthy hand, not just how do I get to showdown.

[ranka]

Any suggestions how I can practice hand reading? For example, fire up 4 tables, tile them and start playing and think each hand and look what opponents doing. It would be good exercise? Or anyone have better ideas?

[RyanCMU]

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Any suggestions how I can practice hand reading? For example, fire up 4 tables, tile them and start playing and think each hand and look what opponents doing. It would be good exercise? Or anyone have better ideas?

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Diebiters hand range tool is a great way to start, I'll look up the link a little later.

[coordi]

So much to say

I wish I could elaborate my thoughts better than 1 liners lacking real content.

[Chargers In 07]

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Diebiters hand range tool is a great way to start, I'll look up the link a little later.

[/ QUOTE ] No longer works. I pm'ed him about that and he said he's going to rehost it soon.

[oldschool]

FR game, 9 handed. all full stacks. early position fish limps, mp raises 5x and hes a tag, YOu hold AsQh, what do you do?