(razz) Cash game quiz

[Brocktoon]

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I also think unless there is some actual info on the opponent, making any assumption about what he might be raising to justify me raising is unjustifiable use of imagination.


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My point was that even if he has the best possible hand he can have on 3rd we still have an equity edge. Add to that the fact that he is probably not perfect in the hole, and could even have a very marginal hand due to the fact that the game is shorthanded, and a raise seems perfectly viable.

I'm not making any wild assumptions to justify a raise, I'm noting the fact that we're ahead even in the worst case scenario when he happens to be perfect in the hole. Big difference.

[betgo]

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I also think unless there is some actual info on the opponent, making any assumption about what he might be raising to justify me raising is unjustifiable use of imagination.


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My point was that even if he has the best possible hand he can have on 3rd we still have an equity edge. Add to that the fact that he is probably not perfect in the hole, and could even have a very marginal hand due to the fact that the game is shorthanded, and a raise seems perfectly viable.

I'm not making any wild assumptions to justify a raise, I'm noting the fact that we're ahead even in the worst case scenario when he happens to be perfect in the hole. Big difference.

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I agree that you are almost always atleast a slight favorite, but you are rarely a big favorite.

When you raise, you give your opponent a lot of accurate information. He knows you probably have 3 wheel cards. This will make it easier for him to fold when he is drawing thin. It also lets him know that a wheel card is likely to pair you, but a 7 or 8 almost never pairs you.

I don't think the reraise is bad, but a call is a little better play.

[Mathew82]

Hand 1
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<u>Hand 1:</u>
Razz ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds


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The correct move is to fold here. Whilst he may be on a semi-bluff with two low cards to steal the antes since he really only needs the ace and perhaps the nine (depending on the player) to fold combined with the chance of outflopping them on the next street and if the opponent isn't a brick caller win the pot, its also very possible that he does have a strong hand.

Your hand has no value in terms of deception and will likely know exactly where he stands during the entire hand enabling him to make the correct plays against you. At the very least, it is going to put you in alot of murky situations where the best move isn't entirely obvious and theirs are completely obvious. Also don't forget the ace behind you, if he calls or reraises, you will be forced to fold because unless he is a complete idiot he definately has you beat because of this lack of deception.

You should of folded, but lets say you pressed the call button by accident if the Ace makes it two to go and the 6 folds a semibluff then it would be correct to take another card. If the 6 made it 3 to go then your screwed and have to fold.

If the player playing a 6 was a loose horrible donk that chases too much or one of those terribly meek players that without reason gives alot of free cards even when slightly ahead - the ten in that case might be worth playing providing it was concealed in the hole. But based on these 4 hands - your nowhere near that stage yet.


Hand 2
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<u>Hand 2:</u>
Razz ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.50 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises


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Raise or call here are both good plays. Very often depends on opponent - if he calls a brick on forth for a single bet - its best to call. If he has loose opening standards but doesn't call a brick - a raise.

I like the raise here as the generic move not knowing this guy at all, because you have a very powerful hand. You want to generally play these past forth street and make it correct to always do so - giving yourself the chance to catch up where you are likely to be favourite if you catch bad on forth and him good, also if you catch good and he catches bad, you want him to play where he catches up to a second best draw....

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4th Street - (4.80 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets


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Well this raise is by far the best move regardless of the opponent because your hand is powerful and definately winning at this point... The only question is how far ahead are you.

There is no point in going for a checkraise or checkcall for deceptive purposes as the only time he is going to raise is perhaps when he is a very slight underdog with the K on board he has a strong gain of position on you for later rounds(the only time your going to get it back is when you pair..lol), and also you will give a weak hand that needs to catch up a free card.

Based on the fact that you raised on 3rd street and he only called meaning that the likelyhood of him having 76 or 86 is far more likely and you can now use that information to make the correct play...raise and raise.

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5th Street - (3.40 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls



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The correct move now is definately not to raise. He just became a big favourite. He's drawing to a nine, your drawing to a Ten with only 2 more cards to come.

It is possible that he has a nine in the hole if he was a really really loose player and paired but you would have to be suicidal loose to play a nine in early position on 3rd with so many low cards to go.

Because he called your raise putting him on a fair but not great hand, taking another card is the best play. If you both draw good - draw again to beat his apparent nine low. If you draw lets say a nine or an eight or better and he his a block - raise. Else Fold...

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6th Street - (7.40 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds


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Obviously the only move...

Hand 3
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<u>Hand 3:</u>
Razz ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds



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Thats a terrible move. Even if there was only one raiser with a card 9 or under in the total steal position you shouldn't call even if you had KA2(unless he is so bad that you want to play catch up for one round for the extra possible equity later on) but the fact that there is a raise and 2 callers, your hand is manure.

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4th Street - (4.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls


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Compounding your error further on third street.... I mean your so far behind its not even funny, again the correct move is to fold.

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5th Street - (4.35 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds


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Good, you finally found the fold button. You should have folded at 3rd. You started against 3 people all of which probably had you beat on third all because you feel you need to defend your bring in. Just think of the bring ins like part of the ante because most of the time in full games your going to fold...

Hand 4
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<u>Hand 4:</u>
Razz ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises


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I don't mind a call but I like a reraise much better inorder to gain information and even if his hand is much lower than yours, it won't be much of a favourite because look at how live your cards are. Now if he makes it 4 bets to go, you know if your against something really good or just fairly good thinking you might be on a steal (factor in the opponents understanding of live cards too when looking for pairs later). This can affect future decisions where your contemplating a close call you can factor in the chances he has paired into the equation and you get this information cheaply before the bets are doubled.

See the way that he now knows you have some card(s) in the range of 678....

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4th Street - (5.00 SB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets



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Well there was a double bet but you know that 6 is extremely likely to be good for him. Its not wrong to call here and take one more card off but its certainly more borderline than if you went for my approach on third then because of the pot odds you would definately just call and take another card.

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5th Street - (3.50 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets


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The correct move is to fold here. You are drawing to a 87 low and at best you will get a 76. Even the best case scenario is that he will have a good draw even if the ace paired but it is most likely he has the 87 beat already and perhaps got the 7 beat too leaving you drawing dead.

[betgo]

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Hand 4
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<u>Hand 4:</u>
Razz ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises


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I don't mind a call but I like a reraise much better inorder to gain information and even if his hand is much lower than yours, it won't be much of a favourite because look at how live your cards are. Now if he makes it 4 bets to go, you know if your against something really good or just fairly good thinking you might be on a steal (factor in the opponents understanding of live cards too when looking for pairs later). This can affect future decisions where your contemplating a close call you can factor in the chances he has paired into the equation and you get this information cheaply before the bets are doubled.

See the way that he now knows you have some card(s) in the range of 678....

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4th Street - (5.00 SB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets



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Well there was a double bet but you know that 6 is extremely likely to be good for him. Its not wrong to call here and take one more card off but its certainly more borderline than if you went for my approach on third then because of the pot odds you would definately just call and take another card.

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5th Street - (3.50 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets


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The correct move is to fold here. You are drawing to a 87 low and at best you will get a 76. Even the best case scenario is that he will have a good draw even if the ace paired but it is most likely he has the 87 beat already and perhaps got the 7 beat too leaving you drawing dead.

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On 4th street, villain has A246, 2356 or something like that. He reraised the early position raise on 3rd, and there are two 6s out there, so it is unlikely he paired. OP has 476J, and he is too far behind, so regardless of how much is in the pot or how live his cards are, he needs to fold.

[Andy B]

First hand, fold third. Puke.

Second hand, third and fourth are pretty standard. On fifth, the Nine can hardly have paired the other guy. You're a dog. Check and call. Sixth is a pretty easy fold.

Third hand, fold third. If you misclick, fold fourth.

Fourth hand, fold fifth, sixth, and the river.

Source needs SOP.

[RustyBrooks]

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Source needs SOP.

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Or possibly, discipline. I know there have been times that I've (knowingly) made all these mistakes. I have... issues... sometimes. I'm working on it.

[Praxising]

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Or possibly, discipline. I know there have been times that I've (knowingly) made all these mistakes. I have... issues... sometimes. I'm working on it.

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Ah, yes. "Issues." Mine have caused me to stop playing cash games and only play trnys for a while - my version of "stop-loss."

[SGspecial]

Excellent discussion all. I don't want to make this some kind of pooh bah thread by dissecting every street of every hand as I'm sure I'll get plenty of arguments about my answers, but I'll give you my opinion on the primary error for each hand.

<u>Hand 1:</u>
Ok, so I started off pretty simple. Even if we suspect seat 3 of stealing here, this is a bad call on 3rd. I agree with a lot of the reasons already mentioned including: you're showing a T and your hole range is very narrow, you're not even the bring-in and have to call a full bet, seat 1 is yet to act behind you with an A door card. Other fun factors to consider: your hand is somewhat dead with an A and 6 out, and the antes are small (yay for Pokerstars).

<u>Hand 2:</u>
The plays on 3rd and 4th are certainly debatable, but shouldn't any decent razz player realize we are behind on 5th?? This is clearly a check, but you have to call the raise as played.

<u>Hand 3:</u>
3rd is horrible, 3rd is horrible, did I mention 3rd is horrible? No offense to the microstakers, but this is the kind of thing you see all the time at 25c/50c and one of the reasons why most players never move up. If you want to know why it's so bad, I think 4th st in this hand is the perfect explanation. (Ignore the results oriented urge to say that hero got to see 5th for only one small bet, because the villains in this hand must have been under some mass jedi mind trick not to have raised him).

<u>Hand 4:</u>
My only explanation for how hero could call on 5th here is that he suspected seat 8 had an A in the hole since he was being aggro and therefore had paired. Problem is, if hero is right he's still woefully behind and if he's wrong he's drawing dead. Luckily I was in seat 8 and got to take a nice juicy pot off him here. Weeeeeeeeeee.

Ah, so who was the hero? Well, suffice it to say that it's not someone I had played before IIRC, but I did recognize his/her screen from the final table of last week's WCOOP razz event. Luckily, he was generous enough to take some of his winnings and start pumping them back into the poker community.

[RustyBrooks]

I've been working on a different kind (to me at least) of poker analysis that I wanted to share. I liked hand 4 for this kind of analysis, so I used 5th street on that hand. It's fairly time-intensive, takes some thought/analysis after the simulation is done. I whipped this up last night so there may be some problems/errors but I think there is a kernel of goodness in there.

http://www.rustybrooks.com/poker/new_analysis/

The gist here is... I consider a range of possible hands an opponent could have. For each hand, I find the equity against your actual hand. That's pretty standard.

Now, for each possible situation on the next street, I simulate again vs. the opponents down-card range. I scatter-plot these, where the x-axis is your equity against the oppponent's hand range, the the y-axis is your future equity against those hands on the next street. So each vertical "line" represents one hand your opponent could have, and the range along that line is the equity you can expect on the next street.

I'm very interested in opinions, I think this kind of analysis can play an excellent role in finding counter-intuitive results for problems like these.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
<u>Hand 3:</u>
3rd is horrible, 3rd is horrible, did I mention 3rd is horrible? No offense to the microstakers, but this is the kind of thing you see all the time at 25c/50c and one of the reasons why most players never move up.

Ah, so who was the hero? Well, suffice it to say that it's not someone I had played before IIRC, but I did recognize his/her screen from the final table of last week's WCOOP razz event. Luckily, he was generous enough to take some of his winnings and start pumping them back into the poker community.

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So were you slumming or did this player try and move up?