TT vs. WhoooooohKid

[curtains]

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i'm always raising 88 here....i guess whether i call a shove or not is player dependent [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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In my figures, to be safe, I had you raising all the way down to like 55 or 66.

[curtains]

Also wtf is with you people expecting him to call with 88, and AQo? Like could anything be more terrible? Against our range these hands are getting completely destroyed. He's raising from UTG and we go allin at a full table, does he think we have 77 or AJ?

[curtains]

Raise folding 88 from UTG is completely standard. 88 might be the #%@^ worst or at least one of the worst hands we open raise there. In general it makes sense to fold a reasonable % of the hands you are open raising, usually at least about 33% of them. Sorry Im not quoting anyone in particular, I am just seeing random comments along the way that seem completely ludicrous to me. Am I misreading that he's UTG at a 9 handed table with 21x BB?

IMO if you call with 88 here against a typical player, or even a semi aggressive one, you are almost always making a huge mistake. Even if you fold 88 and their reraising range just so happens to be loose enough so that 88 is a correct call, you are still probably crushing them game theory wise. What kind of player decides to make a move by reraising some UTG raiser in a no ante pot? And as I said, even if he is making a move, if you just call with some normal range like 50-60% of the hands you open raise with, you are going to make their play bad. This of course assumes you aren't opening UTG with 66, JTs etc, which honestly I don't think are good plays at all with 21x BB.

[curtains]

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A couple points:

1. We are not too deep to be shoving. Effective stacks are 21 BBs.

2. Agree that folding is out of the question.

3. Agree with apestyles that shoving is probably slightly +cEV.

But, that still leaves the question whether calling is more +EV. Just because one option is good doesn't mean others aren't better. I don't know the answer, by the way, but Bakes is good and has position and has a real hand, so I can't imagine playing OOP with TT is very good here.

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I still think that shoving is slightly -Cev. I think its insane to expect UTG to call with 88 and AQo. Of course if they are open raising with baltostar's relatively loose suggestions, then they must call with AQo, but I highly doubt this is the case in this spot, given the description of the player.

[baltostar]

Shoving is just -cEV for relatively wide UTG raising range of 55+,AK,AQ,AJs ...


shove called & win = 4390
shove called & lose = 4090
shove fold win = 800

UTG call shove range:
AK 8
JJ+ 4 * 6 = 24

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.654% 33.45% 00.20% 22911950 138060.00 { TcTd }
Hand 1: 66.346% 66.14% 00.20% 45304090 138060.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

UTG raise range:
55+ 10 * 6 = 60
AK AQ 2 * 8 = 16
AJs 4

BB shove equity:

(32/80) * (.33654 * 4390 - .66346 * 4090) + (48/80) * 800 =
(32/80) * (-1246) + (48/80) * 800 =
.4 * (-1246) + .6 * 800 =
-498 + 480 = -18

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Shoving is just -cEV for relatively wide UTG raising range of 55+,AK,AQ,AJs ...


shove called & win = 4390
shove called & lose = 4090
shove fold win = 800

UTG calling range:
AK 8
JJ+ 4 * 6 = 24

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.654% 33.45% 00.20% 22911950 138060.00 { TcTd }
Hand 1: 66.346% 66.14% 00.20% 45304090 138060.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

UTG raise range:
55+ 10 * 6 = 60
AK AQ 2 * 8 = 16
AJs 4

BB shove equity:

(32/80) * (.33654 * 4390 - .66346 * 4090) + (48/80) * 800 =
(32/80) * (-1246) + (48/80) * 800 =
.4 * (-1246) + .6 * 800 =
-498 + 480 = -18

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The raising range you gave was much looser than that!

[apestyles]

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Raise folding 88 from UTG is completely standard. 88 might be the #%@^ worst or at least one of the worst hands we open raise there. In general it makes sense to fold a reasonable % of the hands you are open raising, usually at least about 33% of them. Sorry Im not quoting anyone in particular, I am just seeing random comments along the way that seem completely ludicrous to me. Am I misreading that he's UTG at a 9 handed table with 21x BB?

IMO if you call with 88 here against a typical player, or even a semi aggressive one, you are almost always making a huge mistake. Even if you fold 88 and their reraising range just so happens to be loose enough so that 88 is a correct call, you are still probably crushing them game theory wise. What kind of player decides to make a move by reraising some UTG raiser in a no ante pot? And as I said, even if he is making a move, if you just call with some normal range like 50-60% of the hands you open raise with, you are going to make their play bad. This of course assumes you aren't opening UTG with 66, JTs etc, which honestly I don't think are good plays at all with 21x BB.

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So, you are basically advocating mucking 88 utg? I don't mind mucking 88 utg in this spot at all really, but raise folding blows. 88 < JTs utg then since JT flops better am i right? Or will u just go with almost all flops when you are flat called and hope ur not drawing to 2 outs? Maybe I am missing something? Raise folding 88 utg is about as strong as 3 bet folding AQ because you "found out where you were at" once you get 4 bet shoved on. This is an mtt, mtts reward teh gamble, raise/call without any other reads. And honestly, I almost never raise/fold with < 21 bbs - especially in pokerstars higher buy ins. Raise folding with 15-25 bbs (M is obv more accurate but to make things simpler) is basically a strategic error -especially in the 100r where u get reshoved on by lagtards with 89s (I know a ton of lags who resteal on semi-short open raisers wayyy lighter than deeper stacks for obvious reasons).

I hate to disagree with curtains who I know is an expert in sngs, cEV, icm etc. and a great poster but... you're wrong. Raise folding 88 utg with 21 bbs is a strategic leak.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise folding 88 from UTG is completely standard. 88 might be the #%@^ worst or at least one of the worst hands we open raise there. In general it makes sense to fold a reasonable % of the hands you are open raising, usually at least about 33% of them. Sorry Im not quoting anyone in particular, I am just seeing random comments along the way that seem completely ludicrous to me. Am I misreading that he's UTG at a 9 handed table with 21x BB?

IMO if you call with 88 here against a typical player, or even a semi aggressive one, you are almost always making a huge mistake. Even if you fold 88 and their reraising range just so happens to be loose enough so that 88 is a correct call, you are still probably crushing them game theory wise. What kind of player decides to make a move by reraising some UTG raiser in a no ante pot? And as I said, even if he is making a move, if you just call with some normal range like 50-60% of the hands you open raise with, you are going to make their play bad. This of course assumes you aren't opening UTG with 66, JTs etc, which honestly I don't think are good plays at all with 21x BB.

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So, you are basically advocating mucking 88 utg? 88 < JTs utg then since JT flops better am i right? Or will u just go with almost all flops when you are flat called and hope ur not drawing to 2 outs? Maybe I am missing something? Raise folding 88 utg is about as strong as 3 bet folding AQ because you "found out where you were at" once you get 4 bet shoved on. This is an mtt, mtts reward teh gamble, raise/call without any other reads. And honestly, I almost never raise/fold with < 21 bbs - especially in pokerstars higher buy ins. Raise folding with 15-25 bbs (M is obv more accurate but to make things simpler) is basically a strategic error -especially in the 100r where u get reshoved on by lagtards with 89s (I know a ton of lags who resteal on semi-short open raisers wayyy lighter than deeper stacks for obvious reasons).

I hate to disagree with curtains who I know is an expert in sngs, cEV, icm etc. and a great poster but... you're wrong. Raise folding 88 utg with 21 bbs is a strategic leak.

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It's almost alawys wrong to do something 100% of the time. If you raise for less than 15% of your stack in a situation with a given range, it's almost impossible for it to be correct to then call 100% of reraises with every hand you would raise in that situation... It may be correct in an isolated example, but overall it usually means you are doing something wrong.


The point I'm making is that you raise a certain range, and you call reraises with a reasonable frequency to make your play as unexploitable as possible, while at the same time exploiting other people's bad play. If you announce that your strategy is to raise with whatever % of hands and then call 100% of the time, everyone can play perfect against you, and your original play would be bad. I understand that this may not always translate into real life play, but against some opponents their play will definitely be at least resembling correct game theory if the only options were raise/fold.

If you were playing at a table full of solid players who don't get too creative against UTG raises, and used a strategy where you open raised 88 and called an allin reraise, it would almost surely be incorrect. If you want to use a read of some sort to justify a play then it's a different matter altogether. However we know who the BB is, and we know he is relatively normal and that there is almost no chance he's pushing with 98s and that realistically calling with 88 in this isolated example (and also from a theoretical standpoint) will almost certainly be a -EV play.


Also raise folding with 20-25 BBs is NOT a strategic error. I mean wtf, to take an extreme example, it gets folded to the button with A3o against relatively tight blinds, and you cant just raise to 2.5x the BB and fold to a reraise? This comment makes absolutely no sense.



I will raise UTG with some % of hands.....some very small % of hands. 88 will be on the very low end of that range if I decide to raise with it at all, which I possibly wouldn't. There is no way in hell I must call reraises with 100% of my hands when I'm risking 500 chips to win 300 and have 3700 behind.


Out of curiosity: is this response more or less intelligible than the average baltostar response?

[hasuuser]

You can and must fold. And curtains is my hero <3.

[d2themfi]

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The point I'm making is that you raise a certain range, and you call reraises with a reasonable frequency to make your play as unexploitable as possible, while at the same time exploiting other people's bad play. If you announce that your strategy is to raise with whatever % of hands and then call 100% of the time, everyone can play perfect against you, and your original play would be bad. I understand that this may not always translate into real life play, but against some opponents their play will definitely be at least resembling correct game theory if the only options were raise/fold.

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v good post curtains, and i think this is the most important part. When we are bet calling 100% of our range we become exploitable as knowledgeable opponents will simply push a range that exploits our opening range